Fresh out of the woodwork Nihonto ?

[daishobohi]

Hello ALL I just picked up this sword, Story is that this sword was used during ww2 to cut the heads off of the gi s The man whom owned sword said he saw the Japanese cut off several heads with it before it was taken.... I have seen alot of swords but this sword is super thick and I was wondering if any one had seen a sword this thick and if it looks like this sword was made for beheading?

Here are some pictures of sword..... nakago looks old maybe koto cut down

Thanks

in advance

Yitzy

[cabowen]

Assuming you are talking about the larger of the two swords, it seems wider than average. I can't say anything about the thickness or nakago without photos of each....There weren't "special" swords made for beheading as they all will do so when used by a skilled swordsman...

[daishobohi]

Hi Chris I will add pix of nakago I am talking about larger sword I know some of the reverse blades were for beheading but didnt know if they made other ones for the specific purpose

Yitzy

[cabowen]

Hi Chris I will add pix of nakago I am talking about larger sword I know some of the reverse blades were for beheading but didnt know if they made other ones for the specific purpose

Yitzy

 

 

I think the "reverse blades" you mention were actually, from what smiths have told me, made for gardening and weeding, not for beheading but there are always exceptions I suppose....???

[runagmc]

I think the "reverse blades" you mention were actually, from what smiths have told me, made for gardening and weeding, not for beheading but there are always exceptions I suppose....???

 

They were also made for wandering ex-samurai trying to atone for their past brutality... or are we not counting anime history...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yitzy, I seem to be missing something on the "reverse" you mentioned. Do you mean that the mune is sharpened? Doesn't look like that from the photos. And I'm not sure how one would do noto (resheathing the blade) if the mune was sharp.... Counting your fingers would be a must!

 

The smaller blade is a wakizashi, right? I just measured my two shinken, & one is about the same thickness as yours is mune-to-ha, & the other one is a bit thicker than that. I've used both of mine for tameshigiri for many years, & neither feels particularly heavy or off-balance. To my knowledge, no blades were made specifically for kaishaku (helping your friend die by beheading him during seppuku/harakiri), & it wouldn't make much sense to have a thicker blade made for that as any decent blade can easily cut through the neck area if wielded correctly.

 

Ken

[Ed]

if it looks like this sword was made for beheading?

Yeah, don't they all ?

While it may or may not have been used to decapitate prisoners, it is just a large sword !

 

Ken, I think he was making reference to "Nata" which have a reversed edge.

Nata translates loosly as "Hatchet" (see link).

http://yakiba.com/nata.htm

 

From what I understand these nata were once thought to be for beheading. It makes a good story, "Head cutter" sounding much more masculine than "Flower cutter", but I think this is a totally western idea.

 

I bought the one in the link in Japan several years ago as a "Nata". Everyone asked scoffed at the idea of nata being beheaders for the same reason this sword in question is obviously not made specifically for that task, and which has already been pointed out here, swords are ALL potentially beheaders !!

[CurtisR]

Interesting concept about a blade being made specifically for beheadings...I'm following the post with interest.

 

In Iaido (At least MJER) there is a technique in Tachiwaza called "Kaishaku" (link attached) specifically designed to assist one committing Seppuku - ending the suffering after the act. It is not normally demonstrated publicly during Iai exhibitons or Shinsa and is considered 'private'. It's learned with a normal iaito/shinke & is a slow, deliberate & powerful technique. I can imagine a very heavy blade would make this one pretty easy!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaishakunin

 

Curt

[daishobohi]

Hi All yes I was referring

to a nata I have heard both opinions that they are gardening tools and beheading tools. I guess any sword can be used for beheading.. I have seen the clip on you tube of the poor daniel pearl whom was beheaded by sword so I guess my question was answered, no specific Japanese sword made for beheading ? I have heard of other swords from other parts of the world made Specifically for beheading.... I think I am going to put this for a polish the weight of this blade is incredible

heavy

cheers

Yitzy

[bluboxer]

Well Yitzy,

what was done to DP (dull butcher knife I believe) cannot compare and was conducted in such a way as to inflict maximum pain and suffering.I cannot even imagine that in my worst nightmares.

Having your head removed by a skilled cutter and a righteous katana takes but a brief instant and is meant to end any suffering.

[CurtisR]

Why do I even bother replying to these posts? A guy tries to share info and (tumbleweeds rolling through the frame)........

One thing I dislike about this board is that a majority of "experts" here are snobbish. Forget it - I'll learn elsewhere. Best fo luck.

 

C.

[Bugyotsuji]

Curtis , thanks for the information.

[Brian]

Curtis,

And what exact reaction would you have hoped for?

The whole thread is pretty darn silly. Only we in the West have this obsession with Japanese swords and beheading.

Snobbish? Because no-one wants to continue the discussion of your interest in Iai?

The fact is that the weight of the sword has absolutely nothing to do with what it was used for. Except for the fact that the owner was probably tall. I am sick of the "snobbish" comments being thrown around as an excuse for everything. Either take it easy and chill...or I am sure there are many martial arts forums out there who think more about the use, than the art aspect.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Just to add a little something with regard to "head-cutters". On pp. 394 of Stone's Glossary is an entry for Kubikiri and a photograph of 12.37 inch blade. It's a strongly curved tanto type blade but with the edge on what would usually be the mune. The first third of the tip is sharp on the other side also. It features a horimono of Fudo-myo (not the patron deity of gardeners as far as I know)

 

I know I've seen others so it seems that these specialist blades were indeed made. I think there's one in Ian Bottomly's book too.

[stace]

I rarely post but the notion this board is snobbish is rubbish! there are some regular contributors here that are truly experts in the art of nihonto. I have learned much from them over the years. (and have only scratched the surface of the subject myself) if someone wants to debate myths and rumors there are other more suitable forums. if someone wants to learn about nihonto - there is no better place. thanks to everyone who makes this a really great site...

 

Stace

[Bazza]

Just to add a little something with regard to "head-cutters". On pp. 394 of Stone's Glossary is an entry for Kubikiri and a photograph of 12.37 inch blade. It's a strongly curved tanto type blade but with the edge on what would usually be the mune. The first third of the tip is sharp on the other side also. It features a horimono of Fudo-myo (not the patron deity of gardeners as far as I know)

 

I know I've seen others so it seems that these specialist blades were indeed made. I think there's one in Ian Bottomly's book too.

I'm pretty sure I've seen such a blade "at work" in an ukiyoe. I can see it in my mind's eye and maybe someone knows the print.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[Ed]

Damn Curtis, What got your panties in a knot ? No one said anything to you ! Perhaps you felt ignored ? I read your post but didn't know how to reply, this is not a martial arts forum. Besides, we had pretty much agreed that it was just a big sword. Is that the word of God or law, no! However, regarding your comments, no one forced you to visit here. If you choose to leave all I know to say is, Best fo luck to you too.

 

Geez Ford, I was somewhat shocked at your reply. I had hoped for your usual intense yet eloquent and educated rebuttal filled with undeniable proof(or at least enough BS to sway my thoughts ). But alas, you wrote, I saw a picture in a book.

 

They were specialty items, no denying that, but for what specialty. Dr Stein has them listed on his site as kubikiri(Head splitter), Bokuwari(wood splitter), and Hanakiri(flower cutter). He also states, "there were several possible uses and many tall tales about kubikiri".

 

Has anyone seen one which was papered as a kubikiri ??

 

As no proof has been presented, I still think in general this is a western misconception. Please note, that is my own personal feeling/opinion and it is not meant to influence anyone. If someone can produce tangible proof of their use as "beheaders" I'm all ears. In fact, I would love to see it. Perhaps one of our Japanese contributors can find some information not accessible to us English readers.

 

Would it surprise me to learn, or do I doubt that they may have occasionally been used for the purpose of beheading, no. Would it surprise me to learn that there may have been a few made specifically for this task, no. Have I seen any proof, no.

 

I have seen a Katana named "Atama Wari" or "Head Cutter".

It was used in a body test and cut a human head vertically in 1661.

[Ford Hallam]

Ed

 

I feel awful to have let you down so terribly....it's a good thing I don't have a kubi-kiri to hand, who knows what I might be driven to in my abject shame.

 

Here's a scan of the example I referenced. Of interest are the other items mentioned, the handy net for carrying the severed head and the odd bucket with spike for sending disgraced heads to the authorities.

 

 

The point I was making was that there was a distinctly different blade to the nata that was described as a "head cutter". That the example I cited had a horimono of Fudo-myoo on it indicated, to me at least, that this wasn't some gardening implement. A nata, as I understand it is a sort elongated cleaver, a hatchet.

 

We know taking heads on the battle field in pre-Edo Japan was commonplace so a specialised blade for this purpose seems reasonable. That it's not something that is discussed in "polite company" (although that shouldn't count given present audience :lol: ) is also understandable I think. These particular blades would inevitably have been viewed with some disgust, as being unclean in the Shinto context, after having been used for their apparent purpose so it's hardly surprising we don't see many extant examples nor any references to them.

 

We know of actual manuals that detail how to properly display heads taken in battle. Is it such a stretch to suppose they devised a more practical blade for the job? I don't think this need be regarded as a "tall tale"...unless we're intent on whitewashing samurai history.

 

I'm at a loss as to why you would think the idea of taking heads is a Western misconception It was how the warriors claimed their rewards after doing battle service. I hardly think they were all that squeamish about the practice back then.

 

Having now looked at the example on Dr Steins site, where he notes that;

"This style of tanto may have been carried by attendants to high ranking samurai whose job was to remove the heads of dead enemies as "trophies of battle". While this usage was possibly real in ancient times, in later eras it would have been largely a ceremonial sword used possibly as a badge of rank. "

 

I would suggest that his assessment of the example he shows is correct. I can't imagine that one being particularly useful for decapitation...unless we're talking about dead flowers. The example I show, on the other hand, does seem to be somewhat more functional in appearance. The rarest of examples brought to you by me....I do try :lol:

[Ed]

Now that's the Ford I'm talking about !!! Ok, you are vindicated.

 

I'm at a loss as to why you would think the idea of taking heads is a Western misconception

Oh no, not the taking of heads, just the use of the "Nata" to do so.

 

 

I must say the one you have shown looks to have been made for something a tad more intense than Ikebana. (The nifty bag is pretty cool in it's own right) It is the first one of these reversed edge blades I have seen with a kissaki. Though I have never seen one, I said I wouldn't be surprised to learn of them being made or used for the removal of heads. And though I would find it dificult to accept only one example as definitive, that one does make a damn good case for argument.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Ford Hallam]

Morning Ed

 

whew ...I thought for a moment I was losing my touch . Glad to have been able to redress that momentary laxness on my part

 

I think the whole nata story has somehow got insinuated into the actual military history aspect of the matter and has inevitable, and quite correctly, led many to dismiss the nata as a serious head removing tool. We can imagine how, for someone with purely commercial interests, selling a gardening tool as a Samurai decapitating dagger would be an appealing option but it has got in the way of reaching a better understanding of the reality of the matter.

 

I absolutely agree about needing a few more examples, and we'll keep loking now we have an idea what they look like (ie; NOT like a hatchet :lol: ) but I suspect they are, nowadays, a real rarity for the reasons I outlined. Perhaps European and US public collections might yield some further examples.

 

Just to add to the source I referenced. The "head bag", and I assume the actual blade, were cited from a Matt Garbutt and an article he presented to the Japan Society, in London. It was published in their "Transactions" 1914. This gentleman seems to have been quite an early authority having translated the following book; Tanki Yoriaku Hi Ko Ben by Hayakawa Kyuukei 1735 in 1911.

Sadly the link to the translation is broken but I suspect it's out there.

[cabowen]

I have seen the head buckets on several occasions in Japan, always at smaller, countryside museums....haven't seen the "head net", at least that I can recall.

 

Other than the "kubikiri" pictured in the Stone book, I have never seen another, pictured or otherwise.

 

We don't know if the one pictured in Stone was actually made specifically for taking heads or simply for a customer's odd request. I have seen all sorts of unique blade shapes in the past made either to suit a customer's arcane request or a smith's curiosity.

 

With millions of Japanese swords still in existence, that only one (or possibly a few others if we include anecdotal evidence) of these seems to have surfaced would seem to indicate that this was far from a standard blade shape and, Western romantic fantasies aside, we still have no legitimate proof of its intended purpose....

[John A Stuart]

In the book 'Capital Punishment in Japan', Petra Schmidt, mentions, commoners were tied to a post and decapitated (funkei) by either the victim or member of the Eta. This applied to only certain classes and certain crimes. I would think due to who was performing the execution some form of blade would be used of tool quality, not a nicely made blade by a swordsmith. Following this the head was placed on a skewer (gokumon) and paraded (hikimawashi). The body was used for test cutting and discarded. This was not the only form of execution and included haritsuke, sakasaharitsuke, kushizashi, ushizaki, karumazaki, hiaburi, kamairi, taimatsuaburi and etc.. Another decapitation method was nokogiribiki where the criminal was buried to the neck and the head sawed free. There is an old story of one execution where the blade was bamboo ans the common people were obliged to take turns to complete the sentence. John

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Chris,

 

you're correct to suggest that we still have no definitive proof of the intended use of the blade I showed. However, what I think we have demonstrated is that the nata type blade is almost certainly not a blade intended for such a gruesome purpose.

 

That the taking of heads was a significant part of the battle field is also an establish and documented fact. Specialised blades for that purpose, however rare, are therefore reasonably to be expected. Perhaps, as a result of this brief "examination" of the matter more examples will slowly become evident.

 

I've found an online translation of the Tanki Yoriaku Hi Ko Ben by Hayakawa Kyuukei which was written 1735. It does mention, along with an illustration, the use of the kubibukuro as being fairly standard. Sadly there is no mention of the elusive kubi-kiri but I think we've already established that it was unlikely to have been common. Perhaps there are references to this term (kubi-kiri) in other early reference works. One assumes Garbutt found it somewhere.

 

The translation I linked to makes for interesting reading in other respects too. The continual mention of what looks best is very revealing, I thought. Very self conscious it would seem. :D

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening All

 

John wrote:

 

This was not the only form of execution and included haritsuke, sakasaharitsuke, kushizashi, ushizaki, karumazaki, hiaburi, kamairi, taimatsuaburi and etc..

 

Hi John, can you explain these terms please?

 

Also if I remember

nokogiribiki

was used for dramatic effect by James Clavell in Shogun to dispatch Richard Chamberlain's arch nemesis the Lord Ishido.

(How bout that for a mixing of media )

 

From about 10.38

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RexTzij ... re=related

 

Cheers

[John A Stuart]

OK, haritsuke ( crucifixion), sakasaharitsuke (inverted crucifixion), kushizashi (spearing), ushizaki (torn apart by oxen), karumazaki (torn apart by wagons), hiaburi (burning), kamairi (boiling), taimatsuaburi (burning on a pile of wood), shibarikubi (hanging), nokohiki (sawing) John

[Ed]

John,

Some of those methods would make a nice quick beheading seem quite humane. I hate to even think of the poor bugger who may have had his head sawn off with bamboo or was torn apart by Oxen!

 

Chris,

I agree, as did Ford, that one example is nowhere close to definitive. I think his example is the best (only) piece for argument that I have seen and it does give me something to ponder. Though as you stated, it could have been a custom order or such and nothing more.

 

I have previously never seen any other, in hand, book, painting or otherwise.

This lack of examples/documentation leans towards reinforcing my opinion, one I hope we can all agree on, that at best if the kubikiri was ever used for taking heads, it was a rare commodity (perhaps for a ritual or a ceremonial act).

 

While I am now less inclined to rule out the possibility, my gut feeling is still, why produce such a blade for the general task of beheading(aside from a ritualized act) that was so easily accomplished by the readily available sword ?

 

Until tangible, concrete evidence is discovered, all we have is speculation.

[cabowen]

Agree completely Ed.....

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

OK, haritsuke ( crucifixion), sakasaharitsuke (inverted crucifixion), kushizashi (spearing), ushizaki (torn apart by oxen), karumazaki (torn apart by wagons), hiaburi (burning), kamairi (boiling), taimatsuaburi (burning on a pile of wood), shibarikubi (hanging), nokohiki (sawing) John

 

Thank you for the explanation John.

 

Cheers

[Bugyotsuji]

Just had a quick ask-around about this with Japanese sword related people. Unlikely that a dedicated sword was created for the sole purpose of exection was the reply. Even the Yasukuni swords were all-purpose swords.

 

It is possible, and I am imagining here, that in some WWII military situations, one large-ish sword was set aside for this job, as the officers may not have wanted to soil and clean their own swords on any kind of frequent basis.

 

Whether such a sword was actually initially made for such a job is another question.

 

When one was politely allowed to commit seppuku in older times, I believe the doer could designate not only his Kaishakunin, but also which sword he wanted him to use.

 

It seems that the kubikiri knife pictured by Ford above was not a large weighty sword for public execution, but designed for the after-death severing of an enemy head, rather as the Yoroi-doshi also had a specific purpose.

[David Flynn]

Just going on heresay. I was told it was the NCOs who did most of the executions.