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Smallest mon?


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definitely not part of original motif, since it is clearly embedded and overlaid unto one cherry leaf on the kabutogane ... I think it's a mon or perhaps unit logo ??

 

there are few guntos like it and I've seen some with different logo ... and no explanation whatsoever on this kind of symbol on the fittings of a gunto :D

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These silver mon are quite common on military swords from Meiji right through to Showa period...maybe still.

They are found on back-straps of Kyu-gunto, on kabuto and menuki and fuchi of Shingunto. Yours seems a little wider in circumference than normal...maybe it was originally on a Kyu-gunto as these are often bigger.

Yours is listed in the mon books as OGI (fan) and a list of families who used it in feudal times are given. Yours is primarily SATAKE...BUT, as has been discussed here before, we can't really say any of our swords were owned by officers with the names listed for the mon as after 1909-1913 anyone could use any mon they wanted (except the Imperial mons). They are nice to find on a sword, but can't be considered highly significant.

You wondered how they are attached...well, from plenty I have seen that have been pulled off at time of surrender, they are just held on by a integral pin on the back (like a thumbtack)...this goes through a hole and is peened flat from inside. The mon sits low on the kabuto because the leaf it sits on is filed flat where the mon sits and the edges are then rounded down...I have two swords with missing mon. Hope this helps.

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There is probably a lot of references somewhere as it is an important and common theme in Japanese history, a fan with the hi-no-maru...same as the national flag...but remember, the officers who put these mon on their swords did not necessarily belong to the families named in the references, anyone could put on anything they liked.

My reference is Hawley & Chappelear "Mon" 1976 page 59. Your mon is a fan in a circle...names are given as

SATAKE, a daimyo family of Iwasaki in Ugo

Also, a branch of the MATSUDAIRA used it.

There are far more families who used it, but without the circle.

 

http://www.samurai-archives.com/mon.html click on page 2 and 5 for yours...but remember, yours is in a circle (maru ni) so these are associated families.

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Greetings to members perhaps this will be of interest. I researched a sword and the mon for a friend. Will include a brief explanation. Ed F

I have compiled information taken from text and also the internet resources in an effort to establish the lineage associated with the manji-mon located on the back strap (shown below as #1) of the Kyu-gunto mounted sword. It was not uncommon for individuals to brandish (2) mons. Sometimes one as a family and the other as an allegiance, award or clan member. In addition, the mon can have a spiritual (religious) purpose, not uncommon on weapons or to camouflage some other belief. An example of this is when Tokugawa prohibited Christianity, many followers that had mon in the form of a cross, modified them to conceal the cross and their religious persuasion.

 

Hachisuka family mon (one of two), this one called a omote manji, not a swastika, may have been influenced by Buddhist belief which was a very powerful and popular influence at the time in Japan. This is a sacred Buddhist symbol most often seen on the Buddha though it appears around the world with different meanings historically. Note that the legs are opposite that of a swastika. According to one article I read, Hitler saw the symbol in Japan when he visited there and adopted it but reversed the legs of it because of its religious meaning. This mon was confirmed on the Hachisuka family burial monument which is considered to be the best confirmation. There were 5 variations found but this is clearly the Hachisuka format. I located it on his burrial site (grave), monument, this is considered best proof.

post-1490-14196808493725_thumb.jpg

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That is interesting Edzo...I did not know Hitler visited Japan. About reversing the manji...trawling up my ancient memory bank, a friend of mine spent many years in Japan studying Chado and Shorinji kempo. He said that the manji (seen on a flag/banner) was a symbol of strength when viewed from one side and was a symbol of compassion when viewed from the other. The manji had to have two sides/directions to be complete (in this philosophy) as strength without compassion is a weakness and compassion without strength is a weakness...perhaps Herr Hitler chose the strength side only...?

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Hi Mr. George Trotter,

 

I did extensive research to locate an heir for the owner who wanted to return the Yasutsugu sword. I only sent a blip of my research for the benefit of interested members. I understand that the philosophy may apply though i came away from my research the it had a meaning of strength and intellect. Incidentally, Hachisuka was appointed Minister of Education by the emperor around 1880s, if i remember correctly. And regarding compassion nobody with Buddhist influence or beliefs, even in china, would challenge that as it on its own also represents the Buddha.

Thank You for responding and helping to make this a great forum, Ed F.

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Hi again Mr. Trotter,

Thought i should mention for your information an others who may be following this thread that I encountered 7 or 8 variations of this manji and they are all unique in design and shape relevant to other families etc. My comments apply to the one i poseted (exactly as you see it no circle, borders, curves etc. Ed F.

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The swastika symbol is more than 3,000 years old. Earliest archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates back to the Indus Valley Civilization. The term "Swastika" was originally the name for a hooked cross in Sanskrit, and swastikas have been found on artifacts, such as coins and pottery, from the ancient city of Troy.

 

Not only are swastikas associated with ancient Troy, the symbols are found in many other cultures, such as Chinese, Japanese, Indian and southern European. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well-known symbol and had many different names, depending on the country. Throughout its history, the swastika represented life, sun, power, strength and good luck. In the early 20th century, it was still considered a positive symbol. During World War I, it was found on shoulder patches of members of the American 45th Division and the Finnish air force.

 

In some cultures, such as in China and Japan, the symbol is sometimes turned counterclockwise. In Japan both the left-facing (左卍 hidari manji) form or its mirrored right-facing (右卍 migi manji) form are widely used in Kamon. The most prominent among those who adopted the hidari manji are the Matsudaira, Takagi and Hirosaki.

 

The swastika gained popularity among German anti-Semitic groups through the writings of Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfels in the mid-19th century because it was associated with the Aryan race and Germanic history. At the end of the 19th century, German nationalists used the symbol on periodicals and for the official emblem of the German Gymnasts’ League. By the 20th century, it was a common symbol used in Germany to represent German nationalism and pride.

 

The swastika officially became the emblem for the Nazi Party on August, 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress. When Hitler called for suggestions for a banner, all of the submissions included a swastika. The one Hitler finally chose had been designed by Dr. Friedrich Krohn, a dentist from Sternberg.

 

Hitler traveled widely in Germany and Austria, but never went to other countries, especially not Japan.

 

Edited to add two examples:

post-13-14196808520523_thumb.jpg

post-13-14196808521105_thumb.jpg

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Two weeks ago I visited the museum in the grounds of Tokushima Castle where the Hachisuka family

once presumably resided. Not a lot on display, but worth a visit if you are stuck for something to

do there. Naturally there were paintings and roof tiles with examples of the Manji Kamon. A child's

set of armour (replica) and a genuine preserved boat stick in my memory.

 

 

The specific Hachisuka Mon had very narrow gaps between the edges of the crooked arms, and was

contained in a thick-rimmed circle, but some of the tile end Mon had no circle. There was a large painting

hanging on the wall with many sailing ships on a stretch of sea with pine tree islands here and there.

Each ship had a large white sail and half of the sails showed a black left swastika and half showed

a right. To the casual eye they both looked just as common and the fact it was in the museum there

strongly suggested a geographical and historical connection. Our guide, a local warlord, said hidari and

migi were different family branches or something.

 

PS In his lookout he had several sets of armour including one full set with matching 'other' way

Swastika. Just remembered...

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Hi bugyosuji?,

I understand from the research i conducted that the encircled mon was an order by the tokogawa shogun, date i cannot recall, was a standard he imposed in order to standardize the practice and use of mon. It applied to clothing as well. Hachisuka, i believe controlled the waterways, primarily the Kiso river during momoyama, perhaps earlier and into the edo periods. He knew water navigation, transport and shorelines which was an asset to the rivaling clans and probably how he prevailed at that time in history. At that time the roads were few, difficult to navigate and unsafe. He was first aligned with the Ashikaga/Date Masamune and later Hideyoshi and finally Tokugawa. You can Google his tomb and monument in Tokoshima and see the mon on it. Before the last of the Hachisuka died in 1918, he adopted a son so that he would have an heir. Oddly or not it was a child of the Tokogawa lineage, name skips me. He died in 1953. The Family residence in Tokyo was sold to the Australian Government for an Embassy around 1953-5. I did the research two years ago, this is part of what i recall, may be fragmented.

Ed. F

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I knew that the Suda used the ura side (reverse direction) but similar shape. I don't have a list right now but had about 7-8 variants with names. Thanks for that I enjoy the topic, first exposed when i actively collect woodblock prints.

Respectfully, Ed F

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  • 9 years later...
On 7/20/2011 at 4:45 AM, george trotter said:

Smallest mon I ever came across...pic from about 1980.

 

george trotter

See posts #615 to #629 below.  Any thoughts on this other one?  Do you know if the other side had a scabbard release button?

Arsenal Stamps.

Edited by Kiipu
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3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

george trotter

See posts #615 to #629 below.  Any thoughts on this other one?  Do you know if the other side had a scabbard release button?

Arsenal Stamps.

Thomas

I just got another photo from the sword I post ,other side had scabbard release button, and it's not in the center.

 

WechatIMG1730.thumb.jpeg.5187d94fdabc558260f690abb321a15c.jpeg

WechatIMG1731.jpeg.8558031a5a4542ae03f36e755018c6f5.jpeg

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Thomas,

I had a look at those posts. I think to answer your question about the fuchi with the tiny silver mon having a safety clip...my ancient memory says yes. From memory the mounts were the standard Type 98 with clip.

Interesting to see a "mon" if that is what it is, cast into the fuchi like that...just like the silver one I found but cast...unusual.

Keep digging you guys...always valuable discussion...even if we don't come up with clear answers.

Regards,

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