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Write up about Early Saotome tsuba...


Soshin

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Hi Everyone,

 

Just wanted to post some nice photos of a early Saotome school tsuba I purchased recently. I really like how the photos have turned out using nature sunlight as the light source. The collectors note that came with the tsuba says Momoyama Period but I would like to venture a guest that the tsuba might be as old as the late Muromachi Period. The Ko-sukashi mushroom design along with "net" style kokuin is classical to the early Saotome school. The "net" and Kanji style kokuin or hot stamp was also extensively used later by the Tempo school during the Edo Period. The style of rim is turned up and hammered back is referred to in Japanese as sukinokoshi-mimi and if often observed in Saotome and Tempo school tsuba. The measurements of the tsuba are 8.5 cm by 8.1 cm. The thickness at rim is about 3.5 mm. The thickness at the rim is greater then the thickness at the seppa-dai. Any comments, questions, and discussions are welcome. Thanks for viewing.

 

 

 

 

Attached is a diagram I found of common kokuin or hot stamps found on Satotome and Tempo school tsuba.

 

 

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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Just wanted to bump this thread up about my write up I am doing for my new Saotome tsuba. I was reading in Sasano's second book "silver dust cover" that he believed the mushroom matsutake in Japanese characterized by rapid overnight growth and lack of roots symbolic. The examples he sits are mostly Ko-Tosho and Ko-Katsushi tsuba from the Kamakura and Muromatchi Periods. As I have been reading a book on Samurai history could this be somewhat of a mild form of social commentary of the Kamakura and later Muromatchi Bafuku?

While I would date my tsuba to the late Muromatchi Period the same symbolism could be in play here as the mushroom shape is done in a similar manor as the Ko-Katsushi tsuba examples from the Muromatch Period. Just some questions and food for thought.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Just wanted to update everyone about this Saotome tsuba. I decided to send it off to a Nihonto broker for the the upcoming NTHK-NPO shinsa at Minneapolis, MN early next month. Here is a link for more information about the show: http://www.ejapaneseswords.com/Arts_and_Arms_of_the_Samurai.html. I can't make the show but next show that I will be at in the Florida Show in Feb. 2012. I will post the results good or bad once I know on the thread. Thank you for reading and comments are welcome. :)

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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Hi Dr. Stein,

 

Nice to see you on the NMB. It was way back in 2003 that you introduced me to my local sword club the Mid Atlantic Token Kai via your wonderful website. I found your website very helpful for my study. Your site along with Jim G. website here http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm I have been trying to model with my own non-commercial website about the art and history of Japanese sword fittings.

Attached is a koshirae that I have that is centered around a large Tempo tsuba. I place the age of the koshirae to around the early Edo Period. The ito looks like leather but is in fact black lacquered silk. I have cleaned much of the rust of the Tempo tsuba using piano ivory and dried bamboo since the photo was taken.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Heard back from Chris Bowen about the tsuba I started this topic about. The tsuba passed NTHK-NPO shinsa in Minneapolis, MN this past weekend. Once I get it back with the paperwork I will post more information about the shinsa results.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Just received what I think is a early Saotome tsuba I started this topic about from the broker who submitted it for me to the NTHK-NPO shinsa. Looking at the white write-up sheet from the shinsa it was given a total of 74/100. This means that the tsuba will be issued a Kantei-sho which equivalent to the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon paper! :D All of the notes are in Japanese so it will take some time to translate. One part I can read off the to of my head is "late Muromachi" written in Romaji with the 室町 Kanji near by. I remember that this time period is the origin of Saotome school.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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David,

 

Very good congrats. I love the mushrooms, even be they not Porcini.

I've followed this thread, but not had much to add. My thoughts have long been Myochin -> Saotome -> Tempo tsuba in terms of timeline.

I believe the Myochin school made tsuba a bit earlier than Sasano or Torigoye say they did. With all the warring of the 1500s, why would they be limited to just armor? I've seen a few examples that have me begin their tsuba production more c. 1500. That is just my opinion, and one I hesitated to share here.

 

I have this late Muromachi to Momoyama example of Sake Bottles (NBTHK Hozon to Myochin). Has a nice fitted box to it. A Japanese friend recently said the sukashi looks more like Mother and Child to her, and I kind of like seeing it that way. Of course, Sake Bottles works for me too. Wish I had a decent sake bottle in the house right now.

 

Neither yours nor mine has been altered for a kozuka ana, and are difficult to find like that.

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Hi Curran,

 

Thanks for sharing your very nice example. Chris Bowen helped me with the translation of the kantei results. The tsuba didn't paper to Saotome like I was thinking it would it papered to something different but related. It papered to "Den Tenpo" (伝天法) with the note in English "late Muromachi". The Kanji I think written are "Muromachi Suki" (室町末期) which literally means the end of the Muromachi Period. I think the den (伝) means in the tradition or legend of. The Saotome and Tenpo schools are closely related have some overlap in craftsmanship, designs, time period, and location.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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David,

 

When you first posted it, I thought it likely they'd say Tempo. They see that hot stamping and it often gets called Tempo (Tenpo) as safer option.

Unless they are really thin, I tend to skew them towards latest Muromachi or Momoyama.

 

Again just my opinion: the Tempo seem to be slightly softer than the Myochin works, and the Saotome even harder more volcanic ore hard than the Myochin. Differing carbon content and whatnot aside, I've handled one or two Saotome that felt as hard as a diamond.

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Hi Curran,

 

Thanks for sharing your very nice example. Chris Bowen helped me with the translation of the kantei results. The tsuba didn't paper to Saotome like I was thinking it would it papered to something different but related. It papered to "Den Tenpo" (伝天法) with the note in English "late Muromachi". The Kanji I think written are "Muromachi Suki" (室町末期) which literally means the end of the Muromachi Period. I think the den (伝) means in the tradition or legend of.

 

室町末期 is read Muromachi makki and means late Muromachi period

 

伝 den means group, school, tradition

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室町末期 is read Muromachi makki and means late Muromachi period

 

伝 den means group, school, tradition

 

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for the clarification about the reading and meaning of the Kanji for the age of the tsuba. As well as the meaning of den (伝).

 

Hi Curran,

 

Don't have any Saotome tsuba of the same age to compare this tsuba to in terms of hardness. I was under the impression that the hot stamps were used by both groups. In the informaiton chart I posted above in the tread the hash # is listed as a Tenpo (Tempo) hot stamp design. More importantly I was right about the age of the tsuba. I am very happy with the shinsa result. :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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  • 9 years later...

Hi!

 

Modern day schoolars like Dr Orikasa believes that the Saotome school of armor smiths are an Edo period school with the founder, the ronin chikara, later taking the name Ietada was active from the very beginning of the Edo period. It seems like the world of sword fittings refer to Saotome smiths with the same names as the armor smiths, but place them one hundred years or more earlier than the same school making armors. Someone with any idea why? No one believe the old Myochin genealogi with smiths from the Heian period anymore but regarding the Saotome school Muromachi period is still considered. I have difficulties to see how any Saotome tsuba could be younger than the very beginning of the Edo period, based on the Saotome armor school time frame of activity.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

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just found this post, and the only posts i read was with out smerking was Currans.

tempo, not satome imho,  fairly standard  mid edo tempo, glossy dark iron. basic stamps and a fairly subdued mimi,  ko sukashi. nothing as classy as ko satome to my eyes.

 

if you put more time into study, then polishing your sales tatics you would have saved yourself some time and money. or maybe just be lazy and have a read of Mr haynes webpage

tsuba gallery (shibuiswords.com) half way down

 

Mac.e.cox also did a great compendium of tempo too. i will be blunt, your a dealer. a good dealer knows there product before advertising 

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Hi Hamish!

 

Since I obviously was one of the posters worth smerking at :laughing: (It's not my tsuba) I would like to hear your view on the dating for Ko-Saotome tsuba.

I am more attuned to the world of Japanese armor and there Saotome school belongs to the Edo period and certainly not Muromachi. Late Momoyama is debated.

Just interested since I se all these early dating estimations on tsuba.

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

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21 hours ago, Anthony de Vos said:

 I have difficulties to see how any Saotome tsuba could be younger than the very beginning of the Edo period, based on the Saotome armor school time frame of activity.

  --Regards,  Anthony

 

Ten year old thread. A lot of water had passed under the bridge.

The Sake Jar Myochin went to a NMB member long ago. I didn't know back then that the absence of kozuka or kogai ana was so rare.

 

As to the dating of Saotome-   well, you decide for yourself whether you think the armor makers and fitting makers are one and the same. I don't know the armor side of things, so I have no opinion.

I own a Saotome that seems to get some debate in terms of dating. This is just "food for thought" in reply to Anthony, and the sake of this old thread. Interesting to see my comments from so many years ago.

Picture attached. Try and look past the hack photography job.

 

PS. Funny aside:   NBTHK made the pictures of this tsuba so large that it didn't fit into a traditional NBTHK sleeve.

 

O Saotome 003.jpg

O Saotome 004.jpg

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Hi Curran!

 

Thanks for your reply! 

The post may be old but datings of Saotome tsuba seems to be the same today, with many mentions of Muromachi and Momoyama. I was interested in what time period the tosogu experts on the forum think the school was active.

Regarding the question if the armorers and tsuba makers are the same, there were no Saotome school before the armor makers started it, that is my belief. 

I guess it's like the viking era in my home country, when I went to school it was the 9:th century, now it started in the sixth, knowledge expands with research.  There is extensive research done on the Saotome school armor makers, by Dr Orikasa to mention one. Maybe not so much on the tsuba side? There are fake Saotome helmets due to their popularity, in spite of the technical difficulties in the solutions. I wonder about the tsubas, almost every tsuba with a chrysanthemum design is labeled Saotome. Is that to simplifie thinks I wonder.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony

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Vikings:  all I know of it is a smidge of the Scotch-Irish side of it. So much of what we modern parlance as Irish Celtic design seems to have been Viking created in the 8th or 9th century? The Viking section is the most interesting part of the Dublin Museum, just as the Egyptian section is (or was...) the most interesting part of the New York Metropolitan Museum. Most fascinating to me, since we rarely get any of that in the US. I'd seen an exhibit in DC when a kid, but it didn't compare to Dublin Museum. I was surprised to see how crude Irish Celtic pre-Viking jewelry and metalwork were. The Vikings certainly brought a tsunami of change.

   --I certainly didn't know they were dating Viking culture back to the 6th century now.

 

As to the Kiku "Saotome" tsuba, -they've been around for a long time and in great abundance. Some or many got turned into Shingen tsuba. A lot of them are made in composite, with struts added. I do think *some* were made in the mid to late Muromachi period, but should they just be called armor maker tsuba? Whether "Saotome" or not is one of those Venn Diagram or the China Yellow Sea 11-Dash Line, or 9-Dash Line... or whatever :-/   debates. 

        Just, of the many many many "Saotome" tsuba I have seen, I would date some of the kiku ones that far back. Are they really "Saotome" or just got pigeon holed there rather than trying to say some kiku ones are ko-katchushi and others belong to the Saotome tsuba maker school? 

 

Unlike the Saotome helmets, the "Saotome" tsuba are only given a conservative level of respect. Some are considered very desirable, though I never saw the appeal until I picked up my little monster. I've been told there are no Juyo Saotome tsuba. I don't 100% know if that is true, but that tells you they aren't prized like Saotome helmets.

    For that reason, I doubt anyone is going to be on a mission to change the 19th/20th century classification system we have that says the kiku ones are all Saotome. As far as the current scholars go, that is -good enough-.

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