New Armour

[Anthony de Vos]

Sirs,

 

I just recieved this armour from Japan. I'm a novice in the Yoroi sub culture so I would appriciate if some of you experienced in the field have any comments regarding age or anything else. My 2 previous armours are composite but this one looks like a full match or?

Anyway It makes me happy looking at it. My wife though have opinions in me, turning the home into an east asian museum :D

 

Kind Regards,

 

Anthony de Vos

 

Sweden

[Justin]

Nice armour! Looks complete to me. The blue material on the haidate (apron) looks like a slightly different colour to the blue on the inside of the kote (sleeves), however this is probably just the photo lighting.

 

Looks like mid-Edo to me.

 

Very nice. Well done.

[estcrh]

Anthony, first thing would be to tell us what the sellers description of this armor was exactly.

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello Eric!

 

The description is not that extensive;

General; 52 Ken Suji Kabuto Kon Ito Odoshi Gusoku:Armor set

Time; Edo

Material; kabuto and mempo-iron. Dou-Iron, leather, gold!

Work; kabuto-painted gold, shikoro and mendare-kiritsuke kozane, mempo-coated black laquer, painted gold.

weight 27,22 kg.

 

Thats about it. comes with 2 hitsu and ukedutsu.

 

It seems to me that even the maedate is a match (insignia on the dou)

[IanB]

Anthony, A very nice quality armour - congratulations. The kamon seems to be Okada family. Looks like it is all real scales, hon kozane, apart from the shikoro and the men tare. I assume the helmet is not signed, since the seller didn't say anything. It looks as if it might be Saotome work, but without seeing inside it is difficult to say.

Ian Bottomley

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello again!

 

Thank you Ian and Justin for your replies! All info is very valuable to me.

 

Do you Ian, as Justin, place the armour in mid Edo period?

I have more than a hundred photos of the armour, so if you are interested in a particular part, just let me know.

 

Anthony de Vos

[IanB]

Anthony, I would suggest mid to late 18th century is about right. Engraved fukurin around the peak and at the top of the dou is an absolute sign of Edo armour. Before the Edo period fukurin were plain, however high the quality of the armour. Whilst your armour retains a simple okegawa dou in russet iron, it is already starting to show older features such as the larger sode and the manju shikoro with kanamono. O-sode and extensive ornament become common by the end of the century. The late 18th and early 19th centuries show the same revival of old styles in the same way that swords did in the shinshinto period. There was a definite spirit of archaic revival and good copies of do-maru, haramaki and o-yoroi were made for those who could afford them. It came to a halt when the Japanese learned of the intentions of America from the Dutch and there was then a rush to have more practical armour made, more in the Momoyama styles.

Ian

[Grey Doffin]

Hi guys,

I know nothing about armor so I'm not going to embarrass myself trying to get terminology correct. Something I noticed, in picture 00037.jpg above, there is a roll of what appears to be leather under the chin that has a design and Kanji on it. Since the Kanji are sideways it looks like a piece of leather was salvaged from something else and recycled into use here. Not disparaging the armor; I find this a fun,whimsical detail. Would someone please explain what's going on?

Thanks, Grey

[estcrh]

I have more than a hundred photos of the armour, so if you are interested in a particular part, just let me know.

 

Anthony de Vos

 

Anthony, If you place your images on Photobucket or another online gallery and include a link here that would be very helpful to anyone who would like to take a close look either to learn from or to help give you a better idea of what you have there.

 

If you are happy with what you purchased maybe you can say who you did get your armor from and since the seller did not give you a better description of the dou it would be classified as a Dangae dou or dō meaning step-changing, that is a combination of two or more other styles. The bottom part of the dou is in the okegawa style constructed with rivetted lames and the top part appears to be hon kozane or small scales, but you would have to look very closely to make sure as there kiritsuke kozane or imitation kozane that can mimic hon kozane as is specified on some other parts of the armour.

[estcrh]

Hi guys,

I know nothing about armor so I'm not going to embarrass myself trying to get terminology correct. Something I noticed, in picture 00037.jpg above, there is a roll of what appears to be leather under the chin that has a design and Kanji on it. Since the Kanji are sideways it looks like a piece of leather was salvaged from something else and recycled into use here. Not disparaging the armor; I find this a fun,whimsical detail. Would someone please explain what's going on?

Thanks, Grey

Grey, you have a good eye, no doubt developed from years of observing nihonto. The throat guard (yodare-kake) may have been removed for various reasons at some time, images of the back side would tell that maybe. If for instance the original menpo was damaged or replaced and the yodare-kake was removed while the menpo was switched with another or while the menpo was being repaired the leather piece you mention may be covering up some unsightly relacing were the yodare=kake was re-attached to the menpo.

[IanB]

Grey, There are several patterns of stencilled leather ( e gawa) that incorporate a date. This was the date when the license for that particular leather was issued, not when it was made. It was also quite common for the mask to be joined to the tare by an intermediate band of leather, particularly when the tare is kirritsuke kozane as here. Many masks were made with the flange at the neck drilled for sugake lacing. The use of a leather band allowed these to connect to a kebiki laced tare without having to drill a multiplicity of holes in the flange that would weaken it.

Eric is correct in that it is easy to confuse kirritsuke kozane with hon kozane unless you can see the back - the latter will show the individual scales even under the lacquer whilst the former will be smooth. From the front you can tell them apart because the lacing will emerge from the back of a kirritsuke kozane plate and run up to the next plate above. With hon kozane the lacing will emerge from between the scale heads since each scale partially covers the hole in the next and the two scales have to be levered apart to thread the lacing through. You can see this in image 00002.jpg the upper row of scales where it connects to the mune ita is somewhat irregular. Had it been kirritsuke kozane it would of course be absolutely regular.

Ian Bottomley

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello,

 

Thank you everyone that contribute to information regarding the armour. It is very helpful to me in trying to understand what I have.

Regarding the kanji and mempo I enclose 2 pictures. I will try to follow Eric's advise to put the pictures on the net.

The seller is a well known, sometimes critisized e-bay seller, the most active there. He had 3 sets of armour, costing quite a lot, for a long time. He started to lower the price recently, they are now all sold. I bought mine after direct negotiations with the seller and not through e-bay.

 

From what you have told me so far, I'm very happy with the purchase, but to be truthful, I've been happy all along, since i bought the armour because I find it very beautiful.

 

Anthony

[estcrh]

It looks like Ian was correct , you can see the many lacing holes in the bottom of the leather strip and were the leather strip attaches to the menpo itself there are far fewer holes.

 

[IanB]

Anthony, Yes, that is shohei gawa, one of the most common patterns.

Ian

[IanB]

Anthony, Yes, that is shohei gawa, one of the most common patterns.

Ian

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

For those interested, all the photos are now uploaded on photobucket; http://photobucket.com/armour1

 

What level in Japanese samurai hierarcy would use an armour as this one? Construction time? Cost in those days? Use, battle or cermonial?

I know it might be somewhat speculative, but I welcome all ideas.

Is 52 a common number of tate hage-no-ita? 62 seems more common or?

 

Anthony

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello!

 

For those interested, all the photos are now uploaded on photobucket; http://photobucket.com/armour1

 

What level in Japanese samurai hierarcy would use an armour as this one? Construction time? Cost in those days? Use, battle or cermonial?

I know it might be somewhat speculative, but I welcome all ideas.

Is 52 a common number of tate hage-no-ita? 62 seems more common or?

 

Anthony

[Iekatsu]

You guys need to follow the example set by the sword guys and be much more thorough in your analysis. There are many significant Indiscrepancies in this "set", a reason why it is as important to study, just as it is when buying Nihonto.

 

While Ian pointed out that a band of leather can used to attach the yodare Kake to a mask, which is true, it should be pointed out that it is more commonly the sign of miss matched Yodare kake, the proof of which in this example is in the construction. If the Yodare kake belonged to this particular Me No Shita it would either be laced in Sugake, as it was intended or the leather band would match the construction of the rest of the armour. In The backing fabric is seen no where else on the armour, there is no Sasaheri (edging) or Jabara/Fusegumi (piping) like on other components of the armour.

 

The Iyeji (foundation fabric) is inconsistent across the board, differing in almost every component of the Sangu, The Egawa, Sasaheri and Jabara/Fusegumi is inconsistant across the board and the kikko does not match.

 

The decorative metal fittings on the armour are inconsistent in style and construction across the entire set.

 

The lacquering is inconsistent, Some gold over a red base, some gold over and black base.

 

More could be said with more precise images.

[IanB]

Mr. Sinclair, I am not aware anyone has described the armour as a matching 'set', in the sense that it was all made at the same time and came from the same workshop. You are correct in saying that there are inconsistencies between the various elements, particularly the san gu as you state. You might also have pointed out that the tare of the mask has a mimi ito in takaboku ito, which occurs nowhere else on the armour. And yes, I have seen plenty of mis-matched masks attached to a tare by a leather band, but if you look closely at this one you will see that the kebiki lacing of the tare is laced to the leather as it should be and I see nothing to suggest the mask and tare are not in the same condition as they left the armourer's hands - but not originally as belonging to some other parts of this armour.

Ian Bottomley

[IanB]

Here is a mask with the tare attached by leather, komori zuke, that is sugake laced. Also attached is one each of two pair of suneate with totally different kikko that beong to the same armour.

Ian Bottomley

[Anthony de Vos]

Hello again!

 

Ian,

I'm actually the one who, in the beginning of the thread, wrote; "My 2 previous armours are composite but this one looks like a full match or?"

Following this discussion closely I guess I'm saved by the question mark So I'm the culprit regarding this statement that Mr Sinclair is refering to.

As an complete amateur I must say that whoever changed, repaired or did what not to the armour, still tried to make the parts look like they belonged, this fools my untrined eye, but obviously not the expertese of Mr Sinclair and Mr Bottomley whom are very informative, thank you.

Do you think the lacing generally is redone, I'm thinking, since you placed it around mid Edo?

 

Regards,

 

Anthony de Vos

[estcrh]

Anthony did state

 

My 2 previous armours are composite but this one looks like a full match or?

 

To that end I think that the only way to ascertain the true nature of this armor is to first look at the sellers description, if indeed this did come from the notorious Mr Damyou the lack of an accurate description is not unusual as only a very few sellers of samurai armor in the world are qualified to accurately state anything about the armor they sell. So with no statement by the seller on the originality of the parts of this suit of armor the next step is for Anthony to do a careful piece by piece comparison of each and every part of this armor and look for any differences or similarities. The color of the lacquer, the lacing, the cloth backings, the edgings, it is a process much like being a detective. Then armed with all the evidence you have to decide what you actually own.

 

The most unusual armor would be one that has all of the parts that it was originally sold with all as in a completely matching set with all the original parts and in unrestored condition, this would be very rare.

 

From there you have a completely matching armor with all original parts that over the years has been repaired and or restored, this would account for lacquer shades and or condition not being completely matching, certain cloth backings might be very close but not exactly matched as one piece or element may have been restored with a new cloth backing or new lacquer which might be in better condition and or a slightly different shade than the rest of the armor.

 

The next in line would be an armor that for some reason had one or more elements replaced some were in the past during one of the renovations that many armors went through due to wear and tear. A broken, rusted, deteriorated element would have been matched and replaced by a period armor maker. These pieces while not original would have been made to look as close as possible to the original parts, with lacquer, cloth, mail and decorative elements as close to the original parts as possible.

 

From here you have the category that most armors fall into, various parts or elements being repaired or replaced with not enough care or skill the hide the fact that the armor has been significantly changed from the original. Parts such as the suneate (shin guards) or haidate (thigh guards) etc from a completely different armor used to fill in missing parts with no attempt to make the parts match. Very current repairs that stand out against older unrestored parts, there are many variations.

 

Then you have the armor that is just put together from completely unmatched parts with none being matched to the other.

 

Occasionally you will find an armor that due to its value has been completely professionally restored, all new cloth, new lacquer, new lace with no traces of age and wear.

 

Anthony's armor is nice looking and appears from what I can see to be an honest armor with probably some elements repaired or replaced over the years as opposed to one that was made to deceive the buyer. A little more careful examination will show exactly what it is.

[Iekatsu]

Mr Bottomley, You are quite right and I agree with your conclusion. I should have paid more attention to the reverse. The Suneate you have posted interest me quite a lot, I have seen only one other Gusoku with two sets of Suneate featuring different Kikko, not a common feature, but of course one of the first things you learn in the study of Japanese armour is that there are always exceptions to the rules. Do you own the Suneate? Are they part of a complete Gusoku?

 

Anthony, lacing by nature has a limited life span and its replacement was part of necessary maintenance in period.

[IanB]

Mr. Sinclair, Yes the two pairs of suneate belong to an armour in my collection. I must agree that it is unusual to find exchange pieces, apart from with very lavish daimyo quality armours. I assume the Bishamon or tsutsu suneate were for riding and the shino suneate for use on foot. The armour is also interesting in having what seems to be a late Muromachi or Momoyama akoda nari bachi that has had a new mabezashi permanently attached, and is signed by 'Miochin Iyetsugu' in large kanji on the backplate. Again I assume he was the one who replaced the original mabezashi and o-harai date with the new peak. The rest is more or less conventional - hon kozane kebiki ni mai dou, kebiki ko sode in kirritsuke kozane, kirritsuke kozane haidate and oda gote.

Ian B

[Luc T]

nice armor, logically built-up. Could be matching by my opinion. Armors were made to be worn, so there were restaurations and adaptions made all the time. As Ian says, second part 18° century. I don't think the kabuto is a Saotome, however it has several details that are made in the spirit of Saotome, and Takayoshi. The mabezashi is in the style of Saotome ienaga, the overall quality too. The shape and the visible rivetts on the outside not. Does it have a Saotome Byo on the inside, just under the apex of the hachi?

[Viper6924]

Very nice indeed, Anthony! Looking forward seeing it in person on of these days

 

Jan