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Kiyonaga kozuka & saw edge


Bugyotsuji

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Quick question. While purchasing a Kozuka today I asked the dealer to throw in an extra blade lying in the bottom of the box. I am thinking of making a Shirasaya for it.

 

Signed on the blade. 清長 Kiyonaga, (who may have been a child of Nio Kiyokage of Suo), it looks like a regular kozuka with a fairly long nakago, with one mekugi-ana. The other unusual feature is cross-cut saw teeth right along the mune. The old dealer suggested it might have been a Ninja tool for cutting ropes, but having seen a katana with saw teeth a couple of years ago, for practical use on boats, this must be another possibility.

 

Has anyone see such a blade, set either as a Kozuka or as a shirasaya sheathed knife? Or should I just send it off to a Shirasaya-shi and see what he creates for me?

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From what I have been told (incorrectly or otherwise) by several smiths, polishers, etc., if it has a mekugi-ana, it is a tanto, not a kozuka. I have a yari that is less than 15cm in length with a license, which, since it is below the 15cm requirement, should not need to be licensed. The Bunkacho rep from Mombusho said because it had a mekugi-ana, they wanted to license it.....

 

Don't know how long this piece is but I would be careful....

 

I would suspect it was made for use on a boat. Would be fun to have it polished and put in shirasaya.....

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Thanks for the considered reply, Chris. A pin would give a pull saw extra strength.

Yes, I made sure to ask if it was legal and there were laughs all round. A saw edge does not count as a second blade, and it is not long enough anyway, they said. Now you have got me tempted to go and consult on polish/fittings and the other thing.

 

 

The alternative and very Japanese way is to just keep it as it is...

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I just picked up a quaint little utilitarian set consisting of a blade and saw. I'm not sure if it's true nihonto, actually I pretty sure it's not ( one of the reasons why I bought it, as I'll explain later). It came in a plain mini tanto like shrisaya mounts, one saya with each blade having half a tsuka width wise. While the blade had no mekugi Ana, the little saw blade did. I'm guessing due to the saw action. On an iPhone and so will post photos later.

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Hmmm....if it did come to a licence question, one could say this is a saw rather than a tanto. Since the Japanese saw cuts on the pull stroke (notice direction of teeth), while western saws cut on the push stroke (ditto), a Japanese saw MUST have a peg or pin. One could argue with the Mombusho Bunkacho guy that this is a saw with a cutting edge on the back rather than a tanto with saw teeth...Surely no licence required even if over 15 cm?

Just a thought

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I would be happier if this thread concentrated more on the function of such implements, and photos of similar/dissimilar Kozuka/kogatana. 8)

 

Arguing with the authorities here will rarely lead to a good result, especially in certain areas. Life can become very difficult. "If there is any doubt, trash it". This has led to terrible cultural wastage, I can guess. Any useful advice in this respect, or theoretical arguments on the finer points of legality might be best conducted by pms or e-mail. Many thanks for the understanding. :bowdown:

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Piers -

Another possibility is gardening/flower arranging, imagine the idle samurai at a moon-viewing wowing all his friends by deftly cutting a sprig and presenting his guests with an impromptu centerpiece for their evenings proceedings...

-t

 

Kiyonaga more likely Shinshin-to than Niô imho

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Piers -

Another possibility is gardening/flower arranging, imagine the idle samurai at a moon-viewing wowing all his friends by deftly cutting a sprig and presenting his guests with an impromptu centerpiece for their evenings proceedings...

-t

 

Kiyonaga more likely Shinshin-to than Niô imho

 

Very good. Many thanks for the input. I was beginning to

think cutting bamboo or whittling a branch for a makeshift

walking stick, or fukuro yari. Or edging closer to where you are

Thomas, the making of a bamboo fan. I know samurai and their

families would supplement their income sometimes by such work.

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Lee et al -

I would ask, of all the examples that we have seen of the nokogiri on katana, tanto and wakizashi how many show wear from repeated use? How many have we seen that show repeated polishing? I think it is the idea that was attractive and not so much the actual application. Otherwise we might see many blades from the Setonaikai area with "rope-cutters" and the like. I doubt that these were were employed much if at all. They were just neat tricks an Edo period samurai could pull out to impress his friends. MHO of course...

-t

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What category do these saw edge tantos/wakizashi fit into? The link posted by Lee shows a signed wakizashi with the "double-set" teeth down the mune and this "tanto" has "single set" teeth...but what are they exactly?

The wakizashi pics show that the tempered edge is on the ha only, meaning the teeth must be "soft" like the body of the sword....I can't see from the pics of the tanto, but I suppose the same applies? ...meaning, the teeth are relatively soft and cannot be intended to do serious work on anything harder than soft saplings or straw or flowers. Can this be a Japanese adapation of western military bayonet/sidearms of the 1840-1914 period? Maybe these are a bit of "cool western art" appearing in Japan in Meiji period...nothing more...or, in the case of the tanto, maybe it is just a tool for some mundane everyday task?...and is "signed" as most tools are?

Just a thought.

Edit: I see this has been mentioned by Toryu.

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Ah, yes, thank you Moriyama san. Most interesting. That site lists it as a Kogatana. The saw teeth appear to get smaller towards the kissaki. Once again the Mei are too close to the edge, as Brian says. Mine also has a double row of serrations, but a little worn, and one at least seems to have lost the very tip. (Pic 2, 8th tooth from machi)

 

Perhaps as Toryu, and Lee, say above, a nifty toy for a samurai, but it got about as much use as the saw blade on a Swiss knife. (ie zilch) :thanks:

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I think it is the idea that was attractive and not so much the actual application. Otherwise we might see many blades from the Setonaikai area with "rope-cutters" and the like. I doubt that these were were employed much if at all. They were just neat tricks an Edo period samurai could pull out to impress his friends. MHO of course...

-t

 

I tend to agree.

I think their use as a wood saw was practical to a degree. It would work as a saw but there were much better saws around for proper use.

As Piers says, 'Swiss army knife' style, although they do have their uses.

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Piers, I have been watching this post with great interest and trying to shut from my mind visions of this implement cutting through the side of its saya. Then I was struck by a possible revelation :idea: :idea: . My dear old dad was a carpenter and joiner and residing in his toolbox (alongside his best panel saw I was never allowed to touch) was a pad saw - a handle with a locking screw that took narrow blades. I think they were used after you had cut a starting hole with a bit to enlarge the hole and generally to cut out enclosed shapes. Could it be that what you have is the Japanese equivalent?

Ian Bottomley

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Having now read Ian's suggestion I have to agree that a plausible option (Occams razor and all that ;) ) might be that this is simply a woodworkers specialist saw and has merely a passing resemblance to a kogatana.

 

After all, this saw blade has a mekugi ana, which as has been pointed out would be essential on a pull stroke and I've never seen a kozuka with a hole in it for a mekugi....has anyone? :dunno:

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Ian, I have put that into my pot too. Thank you.

 

Did you see all of Nobody's link(s), Ford?

http://www.geocities.jp/ntooma/kogatasya.html

Are you saying that you think their classification as 'kogatana' must be wrong? Bearing in mind that the blade is triangular in cross-section, retaining the function of a yaki-ire cutting edge.

 

Over the next couple of days I hope to show it to some Kinko workers and sword afficionadoes in this area. Let's see what opinions I can trawl there for the pot... will report back in due course. 8)

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hope these help the discussion. were picked up at a local jpn antique shop because they were rusted and are not nihonto. please do not rush to judgment, though I understand some comments may be negative.

 

these were perfect candidates to study "bubba" :roll: restoration first hand. with my interest being gendaito and all the junk in ebay, "know thy enemy" was the idea behind this purchase and work.

 

pics are of both after they have both been de-rusted using electrolysis, with the area under the "nakago" isolated to keep the patina. the saw has undergone two evenings of rough polish using one side of a cheap two sided synthetic stone (surface color of saw pics are due to use of store bought mineral oil coating this blade, but also due to lack of skill of the "polisher"). Lesson #1 the need for washing soda when polishing steel. Lesson #2: prepare to have one's finger's blister and bleed.

 

most importantly, I understand better what immense skill a togishi has and why good ones command a premium.

 

Back to the discussion, the saw has a little mekugi-ana, and the two came as a set....probably a nice little novelty gift and representative of an Japanese swiss army knife! I also see how difficult it is to polish the beveled tips of a staggered saw blade, as they would not normally contact a flat stone.

 

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Well, here is the promised follow-up.

 

Junichi, thank you for the photos.

 

Yesterday a friend gave me a sheet of Ho-no-ki and said I should make a shirasaya, perhaps somewhat like yours, for it. Your wood looks like persimmon. 8)

 

Another friend showed me some photos and explanations as to what these saw-bladed Kogatana are. The books say that the Ninja story is a myth and these were probably everyday tools for samurai, although he conceded that they are not very common.

 

They seem to have been introduced around the beginning of Edo, I think he said.

 

The saw itself would not be soft as the tips would have been deliberately yaki-ire hardened, he was saying. He reckons it started life as a kozuka, but first proper use of the saw would have immediately made a mekugi a necessity, so the hole may have been introduced later.

 

I pointed out a slight bend in the blade and asked if it would be OK to introduce opposite bend with the fingers in an attempt to straighten it. He warned me that this risked a snapping in the temper line and the introduction of a fatal flaw.

 

As to the Mei, he said it would not have to be, and might quite possibly not be that of a Katana-kaji.

 

I asked about rough budgets for shirasaya and polishing and he suggested if done locally here around 150 dollars US for the shirasaya and another 150 for the polishing.

 

Whatever type of saya you choose, you would have to take care inserting and removing it. (If you to slide the blade along the mune, you will destroy the sheath.)

 

He showed me his collection of kozuka and kogatana in shirasaya. Some wonderful examples. :clap: Max jealousy. :steamed:

 

He concluded that it might just be better just to leave it as is and allow the imagination free play. Thanks for reading this far. :clap:

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