Unknown Smith or unknown /unrecorded /self proclaimed title?

[gtstcactus]

Was looking at a blade signed "Shimosa (no) Kami Fujiwara Yoshimune"

 

The notes that the owner has with them written by Han Bin Siong from the series of blades in dutch collections he cataloged said " Homma Junji Sensei and Ishii Masakuni Sensei's Nihonto Meikan lists all smiths that were given titles. However, no reference is made to a Yoshimune. Perhaps the sword at hand is by a smith unknown until now."

 

What are peoples thoughts on this? I'm not questioning Mr Siong, just wondering if there are other references that he did not have handy at time of inspection or if any new information / discoveries have been made since the time he looked at the sword.

 

So to conclude I'm really trying to find out about this smith (if he existed)? Could the title have been granted near death and only put on a few swords and was never recorded? Would it be a self proclaimed title? LOL, I was thinking if it were gimei, who exactly is he copying if no one else called yoshimune was awarded said title...

 

I can get a pic of the mei if that would help...

 

Kami means lord? Shimosa being the place name.... So aside from fujiwara unless it's part of his name I get Yoshimune Lord of Shimosa....

 

Is Fujiwara just part of his name, as I thought i read somewhere it could be a title also...

 

One must have a big ego to proclaim oneself Lord of a Realm! Perhaps I've misunderstood!

[sanjuro]

Perhaps I've misunderstood!

 

Yes... Totally and on just about every level. One didnt proclaim ones self lord of a realm, the title had to be granted as an honorary title. Just about every gimei tries to be as impressive as possible and an honorary name such as Minamoto or Fujiwara which is an old clan name from the original Uji, is about the most common inclusion in gimei signatures.

Is this an unknown smith? Probably (in fact almost certainly) not. Is this a gimei? chances are about 99% in favour of this being a dubious signature. If this smith is not listed as one using the honorific of Shimosa no Kami, then you can bet the chances are that it was never granted, and the signature is spurious.

You say you are not questioning Homma junji Sensei, Ishi Masakuni Sensei and Mr Siong et al, but in fact you are. In your quest for a hidden treasure you seek to justify the exception rather than accept the written opinions of men who have forgotten more about nihonto than you or the majority of us will ever know.

I'm not having a go at you personally here, just stating the facts.

[Toryu2020]

Jason -

Good or bad we always will want to see pics, there are things all of us can learn from the image that cannot be presented in words...

-t

[gtstcactus]

Keith,

 

I accept your not having a go just stating facts as you see them, and thats fine. This isn't some treasure quest, nor am I trying to justify anything....

 

I was shown this sword and the notes from Mr Siong. Now all that he says is "Homma Junji Sensei and Ishii Masakuni Sensei's Nihonto Meikan lists all smiths that were given titles. However, no reference is made to a Yoshimune. Perhaps the sword at hand is by a smith unknown until now." What I asked is is there anything in any other books or information which they didn't have handy or available..... Hardly questioning them? Mr Siong states that perhaps this smith was unheard of til now (when he wrote the notes). So based on that theory I wondered if perhaps something else had come to light about the smith since the notes were written, granted that would have to be in the last few years but not impossible however unlikely. I think it may have been in the kantei post one of the members said you've got to check all the references you have available to you when attempting to research something. Yes perhaps it is gimei..... Perhaps not, how do we know, Mr Siong, didn't feel the need to proclaim it gimei in the notes he wrote about it... So perhaps it is you who is questioning Mr Siong and not I...

 

Perhaps I should refrain from attempts at humour here, Keith you seem rather uptight sometimes, relax.... I wasn't serious about him "proclaiming himself Lord of the Realm"... Excuse my sense of humour but I get more laughs out of your rections than the original statement... I'm not having a go.... Just how it seems. Anyway enough off topic..

 

Here's a pic of the mei.

[Toryu2020]

Excellent!

So we can see that this is a well cut mei - very likely a Shinto or Shinshinto work - is there any other info on the other side of the nakago? Do you have photos of the blade? Might help us get closer to figuring out who this guy was, that is if he was a real smith. My first guess on seeing this is Mizuta BTW...

-t

[uwe]

Excellent!

So we can see that this is a well cut mei - very likely a Shinto or Shinshinto work - is there any other info on the other side of the nakago? Do you have photos of the blade? Might help us get closer to figuring out who this guy was, that is if he was a real smith. My first guess on seeing this is Mizuta BTW...

-t

 

Indeed, the curved lines of the kanji are "Mizuta like". Although, should the yasurime not be steeper in that case

Uwe

[gtstcactus]

Keith, it is Han Bing Siong who is crying previously unheard of smith in this case, I'm just going with that thoery. Anyhow it'd probably be best if you do keep out of threads I start as you bring nothing to them but give me grief. So now I'm just going to ignore you. You don't know jack about me, assume what you like.

 

More photos I can do..... It's not in mint condition.... The photos do make it look in worse condition than it is. The kissaki is a bit scratched up to see the boshi (polish would fix it) so probably no point wasting bandwidth with a scratched up shot... Nice hamon IMO.

 

Here is Han Bin Siong notes:

 

This sword is Nr. 284 in the series.

Signature : Shimosa (no) Kami Fujiwara Yoshimune

Nagasa : 52.7cm

Sugata : Shinogi tsukuri, ihori mune, tori sori, chu kissaki

Kitae : Given the current state of polish hard to discern.

Hamon : Gunome choji midare, togari, ashi, tobiyaki, nie deki, yakidashi, nioi-guchi shimaru

Boshi : Midare komi, ko maru, kaeri

Nakago : Ubu, machi okuri, saki ha agari kuri jiri, yasuri me katte sagari, 2 mekugi ana, Signature on sashi omote.

 

"Homma Junji Sensei and Ishii Masakuni Sensei's Nihonto Meikan lists all smiths that were given titles. However, no reference is made to a Yoshimune. Perhaps the sword at hand is by a smith unknown until now."

[cabowen]

The Meikan of Homma and Iishi is the most complete listing of smiths available. I have however come across unlisted smiths in the past, and we know thanks to Jacques that there are mistakes in the book as well.

 

There are a few Yoshimune names smiths in the Meikan though none are listed as using this title. It could be the case that the title was not known or this is an entirely unknown smith.

 

I doubt very much that this is a gimei blade. I think one of the two options listed above is much more probable. The mei is, as Tom notes, nicely cut. I will bet the rest of the sword is of good quality as well....

[Toryu2020]

Very tantalizing photos of the hamon,

Jason I think you have a nice find there and a good research project. Maybe Echizen Seki or Ishido? Does not, from the photos, seem to fit Naminohira or any of the other listed Yoshimune.

 

@Uwe - yes I would expect the mei and yasuri to be cut much more powerfully if it were Mizuta, I think the photos of the hamon rule that school out. My other thought was late Yoshimichi school but again the hamon I can see I think excludes that group as well.

 

Jason - you really could have saved folks a lot of aggravation if you had posted all of this info from the first...

-t

[gtstcactus]

Thomas,

 

Thanks for your help. I would have posted photos in the initial post but was worried about the upsetting everyone again with a piece not in brand new polish...

[uwe]

Hi Thomas,

agree with you, no "Mizuta" and no "Mishina" as well :|

Let me pore over some books.

Uwe

[Lee Bray]

Thomas,

 

Thanks for your help. I would have posted photos in the initial post but was worried about the upsetting everyone again with a piece not in brand new polish...

 

Is this your sword?

[gtstcactus]

No it is not my sword..... however I'm hoping the current owner will be so kind as to let me purchase it.

[poorfarm]

gtstcactus,

To my untrained eye I can't add anything to the possible origin of the blade, but it is attractive and has some potential.

 

One thing I noticed that hasn't been brought up and it may not mean a thing but I see in the written notes by Siong "2 mekugi ana" while the pics clearly show only 1. Likely just a typo but leaves some doubt in any case about possibly a mis match between the blade and description. ??

Robert D

[gtstcactus]

I forgot to add sometime back, this is now my sword.....

[cuttingedge59]

Hi Jason ,

As a fellow kiwi collector I would sugguest you might want to be somewhat humble in your postings towards other members here as these people have a huge amount of experience and have exposure to nihonto that we can but dream off.

There are a small handful of experienced collectors here in Nz with a couple with a life time experience of collecting nihonto . Phillip James is very approachable and will go out of his way to help if he can . Find him thru trademe

Chris

[cabowen]

Phillip and Susie are treasures....

[gtstcactus]

Hi Jason ,

As a fellow kiwi collector I would sugguest you might want to be somewhat humble in your postings towards other members here as these people have a huge amount of experience and have exposure to nihonto that we can but dream off.

There are a small handful of experienced collectors here in Nz with a couple with a life time experience of collecting nihonto . Phillip James is very approachable and will go out of his way to help if he can . Find him thru trademe

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

 

I know of, have met and occasionally deal with Phillip.... I actually have some pictures of a Tanto I purchased off him to put up here tho I'm hesitant too as it isn't in fine polish and don't want to upset everyone again. I was told it is quite likely a Koto period tanto (Hira-Zukuri), which could be worth a polish...

 

Jason

[gtstcactus]

I wonder if the smith Muneyoshi (Hawley MUN 653) who used the shimosa (no) kami fujiwara had any relation to the Yoshimune who signed this sword... :lol: