whats your opinions on this?

[micko]

gday,personly i have a funny feeling on this katana i don't know why but something doesn't seem right ...maybe it's the price..........http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-sword-samur ... 3f09427cb5

[drbvac]

Well IMHO a lot more than the price but enough that I would stay away - some looks OK some not - it took someone a long time to put it all together for sure and would be nice to know where the seller got it. I am often wrong - eyes are almost as old as the rest of me but the whole nakago is weird, very new, 3 mekugiana mei alnost looks painted or done 2 weeks ago

[cabowen]

notice how the yasuri me run across the inlaid saidan mei.......

[Bruno]

The mune machi looks super weak and the nakago blackened yesterday.I am not even talking about the gold writtings.

 

It seems that the owner spent a lot of money restoring and pimping this sword.

[gab72]

The Whole blade look strange and just made yesterday.

But nakago is more funny stuff:

The kanji look like painted instead carved(but is a gold leaf).

Te colour of nakago seem artificial painted and not rusted.

The Yasurime are strange near and beneath of kanji.

 

Maybe are the pics to be strange but i will stay away from this thing.

[leo]

Gabriele,

this is not painted, but applied with leafgold which is so thin that it even shows the yasurime after being glued on.

 

I have seen quite a few works recently involving this technique!

There must be a few very cunning artists in Japan who are able to apply leafgold designs and also kanji to antique objects of art in order to increase the value. This is used in particular on iron tsuba.

 

As I use leafgold for restoration of wooden furniture, I know how difficult this is. Whether right or wrong - the workmanship on this nakago is excellent!

[drbvac]

Martin:

 

That makes sense in terms of the appearance but are they pre-cut and then rubbed on - or is the leaf applied and then traced around. Is there not a paper backing on the leaf that has to be removed as it is applied - from what I recall watching the technique it seems a lot of work for not a lot of return

[gab72]

Gabriele,

this is not painted, but applied with leafgold which is so thin that it even shows the yasurime after being glued on.

 

Bruno I know Saidan-mei gold inlay signature technique.

But this particular mei look very strange for me.

But maybe I can mistake because I don't have see a lot of this mei from live,

and I respect your opinion like artisan of this gold leafs metode.

[leo]

Brian,

 

this is exactly the craftsmanship which is at the moment still a mystery to me. i know that the leaf is "sucked" onto the surface by a very thin water based adhesive medium. The art is to out the leaf and place it imediately to the final position. If you trry to move it like a decal, it will crumble into powder.

 

I have just heard that there is a company, presumably in Japan, who laser-cuts goldleaf decals in any size from a simple .jpg-image. If you have a sequence of Kanji (mirrored!) on a paper and apply the contact medium to the iron surface, it should be possible to achieve the effect as seen. Still it would reqire a lot of skill!

[Brian]

Gents,

The comments about gold leaf are valid, but I suspect that this sword hasn't been done in that way, and the gold is inlayed conventionally. Whether done before the yasurime were added, or after and refinished, I don't know. But I do know that if this was gold leaf, the first or second time the tsuka was put on, parts of the gold would have scraped off.

 

Brian

[leo]

Brian, you have a point there!

 

Maybe the picture was taken befoe putting it into the tsuka !

 

No, seriously, then the only alternative would be kinzogan mei and filing the yasurime on later, which would rally be a bad sign!

[cabowen]

No, seriously, then the only alternative would be kinzogan mei and filing the yasurime on later, which would rally be a bad sign!

 

 

Uhhhh, yeah......see above.....

[sanjuro]

What's wrong with this picture?????? supposedly old blade in a mid to late Edo period koshirae with chinese characters on the saya no less! Luverly, too too chemical black nakago with no signs of rust pitting and 'brand new' looking gold cutting test. Errrr when did they stop doing cutting tests on bodies??????? Now, we have three mekugi ana which looks like an O suriage blade........ but if it was cut down it must have originally been huge and done some time ago, and the clear 'as done yesterday just prior to the repatination' file marks on the nakago dont add up to an old cut down at all.

Does any of this not raise a slight question in the mind?

[AlekseyG]

Guys,

Hello, my name is Aleksey. Im the seller of this sword on Ebay (alex4u14)

Friend of mine said that I should also list the sword on this forum because this is where all the Japanese sword action is.

I looked at the forum and found this thread about my sword.

 

Guys, a little about me. Im actually a collector of long blades from all over the World, I dont specialize in katanas (japanses swords),

I collect from all over. Recently I realized that Its hard to feed your hobby when its from all over the place, not enought finances,

so I decided to focus on my favorite type of sword - shamshir. Turkish, persian, arab.

 

So since Im getting out of "All over the place collecting" Im passing on some of my other pieces from differenct regions... hence the listing.

 

I got this sword from another serious collector some time ago (about 1.5 years ago), as he told me he purchased it from a dealer he trusts,

and the sword belonged to a Japanese collector who placed it on consignment with that dealer.

 

Guys as I mentioned Im not an expert in Japanese at all, turkish-persian-arab shamshirs I know decent about, but katanas not as much.

 

Sorry for the crappy pictures on ebay guys, I can provide someone who is interested with really good high resolution ones.

 

I had one of my friends look over the sword and here is the idea he issued: Blade on the sword is very old...hence the two low punched holes in the tang,

at some point later, maybe 18th century? tang was cut down to fit the fashion of the time and possibly blade was body tested at that time,

or maybe gold was filled in over the regularly cut older signature. If the gold was filled in later or the blade ewas cut tested later on in its life, tang possbily was

cleaned at that time to apply or gold fill the signature.

 

Sword was dressed in its present fittings somewhere in the late 18th? or somewhere 19th? century hence the drilled 3rd hole in the top.

 

Guys again this is how it was explained to me...so please take this with a grain of salt.

 

I read that some of you guys think gold inlay can be a thin sheet...i dont think so because signature slightly overlaps one of the holes and I can see

the deep gold inlay there.

 

On the price guys: Ive seen cutting test blades go for a lot of money, but since I dont know that much about this market I just desided to pass the sword on

for slightly over what I paid for it and covering all the ppal and ebay fees (I also was expecting some lower offers).

If someone is interested in it please let me know and I can pass it on to you guys for what I paid for it.

 

Aleksey (Alex)

 

[micko]

hi Alex, sorry to tell you mate but you have been stung,it's a nice sword but thats about it you'd be lucky and i mean very lucky in todays market to get 2 grand.

 

regards

micko

[AlekseyG]

Guys, Hello, thank you for your opinions.

I think part of the speculation are my pictures and angle I took them at. I will attempt to retake the pictures and possbily post them here. I looked at the sword again last night and looked at the tang, inlay looks to be a true inlay thick and deep. It also looks to be some surface red rust generation over the black rust underneath. maybe its what created that color and the slightly porous look that generated speculation. After wiping the tang with the dry cloth, I could see the edges of the inlay better. Looking at the cutting part of the blade I could see some nice hamon lines and also beautiful forging patterns, I will attempt to capture those as well.

 

Micko, with respect, I will hold out of a slightly better offer. I apreciate your opinion though.

[Brian]

Aleksey,

Well done to you for coming here and genuinely wanting to learn more about your item. It is, as you have seen, a tough one.

I don't know yet what to think of it. Someone put a lot of work into that mei, and it would have to be a very nice sword to warrant that kind of attention. But of course there are some signs that cause further questions, and I think the blade really does need to go to someone who can examine it in hand. I am not sure what would happen to a blade if shortened later and a cutting test done at that time. Yasurime over the gold, or not? I seem to recall a blade a friend here in South Africa queried, and the experts seemed to think the yasurime over the mei were ok.

One thing I do know is that eBay isn't the place for this. It is a lousy market for higher priced stuff. I would suggest finding an expert near you who can look it over, and maybe see if the workmanship matches the attention given to it.

Anyways, either way, we are here to assist where we can. Please don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

Brian

[Kevin]

Aleksey, what lighting were you using to photograph the blade? A mismatch between the lighting used and the film or, in the case of a digital camera, the colour temperature setting can cause a colour shift in a photo.

 

Just wondered if that explained the difference between your description of the nakago and the photos.

 

Kevin

[Surfson]

Hi All. I'm not sure why everybody is being so diplomatic about this sword. Aleksey, it appears that you sold it for $9500. I'm very happy for you but sorry for whoever bought it. In my view it has so many issues with it that I would stay away from it. More disturbing is that it is likely (in my quite humble opinion) to be some kind of simulation of an old sword. As time goes on, the forgers get better and better, and I am concerned that novice collectors will find it too intimidating to enter our field of collecting. I was thinking about collecting Greek drachmas, but the fakes are so good that it is virtually impossible to tell the real from the fake. Anyway, congrats for getting out of this sword intact (I presume).

[AlekseyG]

Guys, Hello, I will retake some photos tomorrow or first thing monday and post them hopefully it will clear up some issues that maybe were caused by my poor photo skills.

 

Robert S., Hello, sword has not been sold yet, I pulled it off ebay early because I had some many questions, messages and offers to sell it for an amount in/out of ebay.

I wanted to make sure I know what I have and what I should accept for it. Robert, you seem to have a very strong opinion on the sword, could you please outline for me some issues that you see with it, It wight help me take pictures better and help address the things one way or the other. Thank you, Aleksey.

 

By the way if you read my earlier post, dealer who sold my friend and a fellow collector this sword was a gent by the name of David Brown, supposedly a serious collector and dealer of Japanese swords and other arms& militaria antiques.

 

Kevin, thank you for the color temp advice I will mess with my camera tomorrow and set it to the cold color temp and try to take some more pics without the sun to capture all the detail in

the blade and the tang.

 

Also guys, I really wanted to ask about the fittings: how can they be clasiffied and what age approximatly are they? Thru some worn spots in the bottom fittings of the scabbard underneath the guilding I can see eother copper or iron its a little hard to tell. Thank you in advance for any assistance.

 

Aleksey

[Lee Bray]

By the way if you read my earlier post, dealer who sold my friend and a fellow collector this sword was a gent by the name of David Brown, supposedly a serious collector and dealer of Japanese swords and other arms& militaria antiques.

 

I suggest if you're going to have someone look at your sword objectively then don't use the guy who sold it in the first place.

[Surfson]

Aleksey, I was under the impression that it sold, based on the statement in the ebay listing. We have a policy at the NMB not to discuss a sword while it is listed and being presented for sale. I will say that many of the points that I would make about the sword were already made by fellow NMB members in response to the original link to the sale result. Cheers, Bob

[AlekseyG]

Robert (Bob),

OK thank you for your response,

strangly though, this whole thread was started and commented on while the sword was offered for sale?

 

If you guys dont mind I and someone is willing to still help me with some information, like on sword dress and fititngs I would really apreciate it.

I will leave it to the admininstrators of this forum to close or allow the continuation of the discussion.

PLease let me know guys,

Thank you, Aleksey

 

P.S> Lee, thank you for your advice, I wasnt planing on asking that dealer for evaluation, i dont know the guy but my friend trusts (trusted) him, so I included his name maybe someone else is familiar with him or his practices since both myself and my friend thought this sword was completely cosher, but it seems to have a lot of questionable aspects.

[Brian]

Aleksey,

I note you seem to be in Atlanta? Does anyone know of a reputable dealer, sword society or sword show that Aleksey can take the sword to to get it evaluated?

Aleksey, might even pay you to wait for the next shinsa and submit the sword for an opinion.

 

Brian

[AlekseyG]

Brain, Hello, I'm in Atlanta.

I absolutely will be up for meeting with reputable dealers, members or attending a specialized sword show.

 

Brian, I apologize, I'm not familiar with the term "shinsa", could you please let me know what and where it is?

Thank you again, Aleksey

[Mark]

Stone Mountain GA is near Atlanta, there is a very knowlegable collector there

[Mark]

another option could be bring the sword to the show in Chicago. You could get a lot of instant free information. I will be there and so will a lot of memebers. not a bad drive from Atlanta, make a nice get away

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering what can be the purpose of a tameshimei upon a mumei blade

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering what can be the purpose of a tameshimei upon a mumei blade

 

The same as that on a signed blade- to attest to its cutting ability....

[nagamaki - Franco]

In addition to Chris' obvious answer about cutting test;

1) it is possible to determine the maker of a mumei blade, and therefore associate a sharpness rating with the maker.

2) swords were not only tested for cutting ability, but also to ensure against a hidden flaw that might lead to catastrophic failure.