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motif identification

kokyo jin

By kokyo jin
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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

I stand corrected...should have looked a bit closer and I would have seen that there is not a spear involved.....looks like they are standing on a bridge though....

 

Guess the motif is "two guys fighting"....

 

My comments on the use of colored text stands.....please stick to black.....

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Brian

Brian

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Bear in mind that a very few people are not using the standard theme for the forum, and may have chosen other themes with different colours and therefore changing the text colout may look very odd to many people.

Anyways, one of these days I am going to remove the other themes and force one theme (easier for maintenance) but not just yet, so don't panic.

 

Brian

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watsonmil Mentor

watsonmil

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Dear Hilik,

I would have to disagree with Mr. Moriyama, ... and state that I believe this is quite likely an interpretation of Yoshitsune and Benkei on Gojo Bridge. Although Benkei is normally depicted carrying a Naginata, .... upon reading a rather long account of the historical and/or legendary life of Yoshitsune and a section devoted to the relationship between Benkei and Yoshitsune and therein giving an account of their confrontation on Gojo Bridge, ... there is no mention in the account that I read of the famous Naginata but rather .... " Benkei drew his sword and there was a fight in which Yoshitsune was the victor, Bekei thus having to go on his way with a warning against his evil practices instead of the thousandth sword that he expected. " .... It may actually be a more accurate depiction of Yoshitsune and Benkei on this particular occasion than one normally views in Japanese Art. I can recall no other famous legend that this might otherwise represent especially given the combat is depicted upon a bridge, I think it too coincidental to be just an armed disagreement without meaning. It is most likely the artists interpretation of the confrontation as he had read or had related to him.

... Ron Watson

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watsonmil Mentor

watsonmil

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Dear Hilik, Chris,

Oh, ... they are very much Japanese and still fairly common although Vestas ( match safe's ) were made in a variety of shapes, themes and material, ... examples of Japanese origin are not terribly rare YET. There is actually a very good article on them in : ARTS OF ASIA ( Sept-Oct issue 1986 page's 142, 143 ). I have a couple in my collection of Japanese artifacts. By the way, .... the reverse side of your original posting ( photo of Match safe ) confirms my conclusion that this is the Yoshitsune - Benkei theme in that it depicts Benkei the mischievious " youth thief " awaiting his victim at the Gojo Bridge. You have two very nice Vestas there my friend.

... Ron Watson

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Nobody Grand Master

Nobody

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Why the motif is not Yoshitsune and Benkei:

 

1. The back ground is not Gojo Bridge.

I think that the place is a residence or its corridor. Look at a curtain on the top.

 

2. The young samurai is not Benkei.

Benkei was a monk soldier. Look at his costume and hairstyle. Is his head close-cropped?

 

3. The other samurai is not Yoshitune.

In the episode at Gojo bridge, Yoshitune did not put on armor. And Yoshitsune was much shorter than Benkei.

 

4. The scene (my guess)

The young samurai was going to attack someone in a residence. Before he achieved his purpose, he was prevented by the armored samurai by pinioning.

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watsonmil Mentor

watsonmil

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Dear Moriyama,

You make a far more convincing argument than I, .... in fact I must in this instance admit complete and utter defeat ( not that easy for me ). I was allowing for artistic license in the depiction, ... but I agree there are just too many discrepencies. I always look at Japanese themes ( art ) as having either natural, historic and/or legendary foundation. It is good to be set upon with concrete argument and I cannot further argue my interpretation in this case. May I be your Benkei :bowdown:

... Ron Watson

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kokyo jin Enthusiast

kokyo jin

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Dear Ron,

 

I'm afraid it is not that easy. The first and last images are NOT from the same vesta.

 

Each vesta has the same depiction on both sides, so I wasn't quite sure they are related.

 

I tend to agree with Morita sama on this. He is correct on the theme.

 

----

 

Morita sama,

 

Thank you !!

 

I was unfamiliar with this story up to now.

 

I was able to find evidence that supports your version...

 

 

First vesta probably shows 'Soga no Goro and Asahina Saburo in armour pulling'.

 

http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mweb ... 3;type=101

 

http://www.printsofjapan.com/Kuniyoshi_ ... h_Fudo.htm

 

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/ar ... earch_id=1

 

 

 

Last vesta shows 'Soga Goro with Sword in Hand'

 

http://www.fujiarts.com/cgi-bin/item.pl?item=115484

 

 

Both shows motifs similar in both vestas, such as the hair style and the Aoi (hollyhock) Mon on the curtain.

 

Hilik

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