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newbie - tsuba mei question


Birdman

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Hello, all. I just purchased my first true nihonto on Ebay yesterday - a rather rusty wakizashi - with an eye towards having it repolished. A professional polisher I contacted said it looked restorable to him, as long as it hasn't had the temper burned out in a fire, or the nicks in the edge don't go past the edge of the hamon.

 

As the sword was missing fuchi, kashira, seppa and tsuba, I looked around some more and found a tsuba I liked that was within my price range. It has a mei on it, but as I have no experience wth these things, I can't read it. I don't even know which way is "up". Read one way, to me it looks like it couls start with "Yoshi". Turned the other way, it looks like it could end with "Mune". Here is a link to the Ebay page:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=260722434082&si=WW31OgROrL1XYjWedbfTGCTMCA4%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

 

Can someone please help me out here?

 

The sword itself is mumei, by the way, but supposed to be Edo period.

 

 

Rich K.

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You will likely be frustrated trying to buy a tsuba that fits on ebay. You will get something home and it will either be very loose or, worse yet, the nakago ana will be too small for the tang of the sword. Best to bring it to a show and go around the room looking for somebody that has hundreds of inexpensive tsuba and start trying the wakizashi size tsuba out on your blade. Cheers, Bob

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Myself and the mods have removed the subsequent replies that became hostile and confrontational.

Further rudeness will lead to removal of the thread and/or members if necessary.

 

Remember something, this forum is not just about quick questions and quick answers. If you ask about something, you should expect general advise too, as people never know the level a collector is at, and sometimes they are unaware of things that they need to know. Also, advice is given that doesn't always match the original question, for the benefit of others reading.

 

By the same token, answers must be polite and reasonable. I don't care if you get offended for some reason...be the better person and either say nothing, or respond politely.

 

That all said, I don't have a translation yet, I am sure someone will. However you need to note the size of this thing. Can it really be 2" x 1.8" :?:

In that case, it is not going to fit on a wakizashi.

 

Brian

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Well, as I said, I'm new to this. The wakizashi is 21.5" OAL, 14.7" cutting edge, 1.1" wide blade. What size would be appropropriate?

 

Quite honestly, there are no rules as to what size of tsuba would fit the wakizashi. This depends on the style of koshirae (mountings). Now, it seems that what you are trying to do is to assemble some sort of mountings, any sort, actually, just to have the blade look like a real "samurai sword".

 

If I am wrong, please accept my apologies. If, however, I am right, please do not try to do this. It will not work if you are don't know A LOT about koshirae and HAVE THE MONEY to order one. You will end up with a haphazard koshirae which will not add any value to your sword. If the wakizashi is in a shirasaya, keep it that way. Appreciate the blade.

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I can only second what Mariusz is saying. Unless you know what you are doing then dont do it. Assembling an appropriate koshirae takes a lot of knowledge, a great deal of money and more than a little luck. A decent matching Koshirae can cost as much if not more than a blade.

Other newbies on this board have tried to assemble a koshirae for their blades and generally failed due to lack of knowledge. The more knowledgable seldom try it and certainly not by trawling through the general detritus and low end flotsam to be found on ebay. Please, for your own sake get educated first. By the time you know enough to attempt assembling a koshirae you will also know enough not to go ahead with the attempt. :)

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This is the sword:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=290527752171&si=R4%252FgRm7nMve3C3gv89i7KXsq5aI%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

 

Before I bought it, I researched online to see just how bad a sword could be, and still be restorable. I also looked into how much it would cost to have the blade polished, and had David Hofhine (http://www.swordpolisher.com) look at the photos. He said it looked like an interesting blade, and that it could probably be restored as long as the sword hadn't been burned in a fire or the deepest chips didn't go past the temper line. I'm not expecting it to be a museum piece, though.

 

It will certainly need a new tsuka, and a new habaki once it's polished. I don't know if the original saya could - or should - be salvaged. Someone told me that it might be possible to split it along the seam and clean out the rust and dirt, then re-assemble and lacquer it (probably get cashew lacquer from Lohman's). But in any case, I do want an assembled sword and not just a blade in shirasaya, though. And I DO like the looks of the tsuba I bought.

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Rich,

 

 

Wheteher or not you take the suggestions given on restoration of Koshirae, you might want to consider the following. If you polish a blade-you should definitely have a shirasaya made for it. Although Koshirae can be cleaned-there is no substitiute for a new one. And if that rusty blade has been in that Koshirae, then it's probably extremely dirty inside.

One of my first aquisitions was a freshly polished blade and it still looks just the way it did when I recieved it, because its in a fresh Shirasaya. I've seen others scratched and one posted here that had to be touched up afterwards becasue new shirarsaya wasn't made at time of polish. Send it to have shirasaya made while awaiting polish would be my thought. Either way, good luck.

I like the shobu Geometry of the blade, at least that's what it looked like from the pics.

 

Jamie

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I like the shobu Geometry of the blade, at least that's what it looked like from the pics.

 

Jamie

Okay, newbie question - exactly what is "shobu"? And would this sword be considered a ko-wakizashi, or an o-tanto?

 

Should I just have a shirasaya made, and a new habaki, then, and assemble an entirely new - and correct - set of koshirae later? What about the repros from Fred Lohman? Are they good quality, and appropriate for a sword like this? It looks like he has an entire "package" where he will supply a complete set of koshirae for a sword - would this be worth my while and my money? Is there a less expensive route?

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Hi Rich,

Shobu refers to shobu-zukuri, the shape of the blade without yokote at the start of the kissaki.

What should you do with this blade? Be very careful before you spend any more money on it. The ha-machi and mune-machi don't line up (red flag) and the condition is terrible. It is possible for a blade to be in this condition and come out of polish looking great but usually that doesn't happen. And I would expect any blade sold out of Japan to have been checked before sale; you don't find sleepers (diamonds in rough) with the Japanese dealers.

Every last one of us, when we first get into Nihonto, wants to own one representative sword which we want to have polished and for which we want to have koshirae made. And a few years later nearly every last one of us wishes we hadn't wasted so much money on a fruitless project. If you do what you're planning, when you get done you will have spent enough to buy a decent sword in polish and with nice koshirae, and odds are good that you'll end up with something worth a lot less than what you've spent.

Before proceeding you need to show this blade to a properly trained polisher, maybe have a window opened if he thinks it makes sense, but I'm guessing he will tell you to save your money and spend it more wisely elsewhere.

Grey

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Hi Rich,

Shobu refers to shobu-zukuri, the shape of the blade without yokote at the start of the kissaki.

What should you do with this blade? Be very careful before you spend any more money on it. The ha-machi and mune-machi don't line up (red flag) and the condition is terrible. It is possible for a blade to be in this condition and come out of polish looking great but usually that doesn't happen. And I would expect any blade sold out of Japan to have been checked before sale; you don't find sleepers (diamonds in rough) with the Japanese dealers.

Every last one of us, when we first get into Nihonto, wants to own one representative sword which we want to have polished and for which we want to have koshirae made. And a few years later nearly every last one of us wishes we hadn't wasted so much money on a fruitless project. If you do what you're planning, when you get done you will have spent enough to buy a decent sword in polish and with nice koshirae, and odds are good that you'll end up with something worth a lot less than what you've spent.

Before proceeding you need to show this blade to a properly trained polisher, maybe have a window opened if he thinks it makes sense, but I'm guessing he will tell you to save your money and spend it more wisely elsewhere.

Grey

Planned on sending it to Dave Hofhine. He seems to have a good reputation, and his prices seem reasonable as well.

 

I figured doing it my way would allow me to spread the cost over time. Champagne taste, beer budget, and all that.

 

I wasn't looking at getting a return on my investment. To me, investments are for guys with lots of money to invest in the first place - which I don't. I happen to like swords in general, and I already have one antique (a Punjabi tulwar from the early 19th century with a silvered hilt - cost me under $200. Blade is pitted, scabbard in rough shape, but it's still VERY sharp!). I wanted a real Nihonto, but cringed every time I saw the prices of blades in polish with koshirae. I'd need a bank loan! :shock:

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I can only echo what others have said - if the blade is worth polishing on its own merits - while its being done have a shirasaya and habaki made and enjoy the blade as is - or if you think you can sell it and get ALL your money back - move up to a blade already in full mounts if thats what you want in the end.

 

Only other thing I can think of is really customizing or adding aftermarket parts to a car or motorcycle and then trying to get any kind of a return. Invarialble the thing never works as good as stock - isn't as reliable and it made to your tastes alone - can never sell and get your money back.

 

I remember my first blade and where I am - 25 years ago before e-commerce good luck even finding a dealer let alone any kind of choice - just about wet myself when I saw what I thought was gorgeous and it was for my first nihonto - but - its gone now and so is the 15,000 dollar car I had 20 years ago and the car isnt worth 10 cents. I know I am rambling and all I am trying to say is if you buy carefully and don't spend good money after bad - you probably won't be on the losing side in 10-15 years - so enjoy the hunt - take your time - and if you are going to collect - this wont be your last ! Unless you spend more than its worth to make it look like you think it should -= then - :bang:

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I can only echo what others have said - if the blade is worth polishing on its own merits - while its being done have a shirasaya and habaki made and enjoy the blade as is - or if you think you can sell it and get ALL your money back - move up to a blade already in full mounts if thats what you want in the end.

 

Only other thing I can think of is really customizing or adding aftermarket parts to a car or motorcycle and then trying to get any kind of a return. Invarialble the thing never works as good as stock - isn't as reliable and it made to your tastes alone - can never sell and get your money back.

 

I remember my first blade and where I am - 25 years ago before e-commerce good luck even finding a dealer let alone any kind of choice - just about wet myself when I saw what I thought was gorgeous and it was for my first nihonto - but - its gone now and so is the 15,000 dollar car I had 20 years ago and the car isnt worth 10 cents. I know I am rambling and all I am trying to say is if you buy carefully and don't spend good money after bad - you probably won't be on the losing side in 10-15 years - so enjoy the hunt - take your time - and if you are going to collect - this wont be your last ! Unless you spend more than its worth to make it look like you think it should -= then - :bang:

Well, since I bought it for my own enjoyment, and not an investment, this does not bother me. When I do get a new set of koshirae, it will be completely to my taste, though not inappropriate to the sword (no cheesy Chinese castings, fake silk tsukamaki, plastic samegawa, modern themes, etc.). Meanwhile, I agree that a shirasaya probably is a good idea until I can get exactly the koshirae I want.

 

Now, about that mei translation... :)

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Rich,

Against better judgment, let me try once again.

I don't know what David Hoffine will charge for polish but I do know that the cost of a polish from a properly trained polisher, when added to the cost of shira-saya and possibly a habaki, will add up to more than what you'd have to spend for a similar sword, without defects and in polish and shira-saya. You will spend more your way and you're taking a huge risk that the sword will be severely compromised (read worthless) once you're finished. And you can't spread out the costs of polish, habaki, and shira-saya; they all come at the same time.

Grey

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My guess on the mei is Shigetada. I feel pretty good about the Shige but that second one is just too tough to make out. If you could draw a sketch of the character as you can see it from many different light sources. If you can even get close folks here can often get it. Good luck Rich.

 

Doug

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Rich.

 

Actually I'm not going against my better judgement and trying again. I am however saying this:

If you choose to go against the excellent advice given here and the reproduction koshirae devalues your blade as it is sure to do; If the polish does not reveal a worthwhile hada and hamon and the result is not what you expected, please dont come back here and whine about how badly it turned out both financially and aesthetically. You are risking much, but the risk and the blame are yours to bear.

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My guess on the mei is Shigetada. I feel pretty good about the Shige but that second one is just too tough to make out. If you could draw a sketch of the character as you can see it from many different light sources. If you can even get close folks here can often get it. Good luck Rich.

 

Doug

Thanks! When it arrives (probably in a few weeks - it just shipped out via EMS) I'll try to get a better picture of the mei.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, it arrived toay. It is quite small, so it's either for a tanto or a ko-wakizashi. I'm reading the mei as Masashige. Were there many tsuba makers by that name?

 

Also, I'm reading the mei from the mune side of the nakago ana, to the ha side.

 

I'm afraid I'm not having much luck getting good photos that show the mei (the ones on Ebay turned out better...)

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I also would like to add my two cents. I have two nice early shinto blades in shirasaya. It has always been my aim to mount them as a daisho. I have bought some nice pieces to try and do that but have quickly come to realize that it really is a very daunting task that will take years and much money to do correctly. Therefore, I decided to leave them in shirasaya and use some the money I would have spent on tsuba which I have become much more attracted to. I believe I have eliminated a lot of frustration in this way.

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I also would like to add my two cents. I have two nice early shinto blades in shirasaya. It has always been my aim to mount them as a daisho. I have bought some nice pieces to try and do that but have quickly come to realize that it really is a very daunting task that will take years and much money to do correctly. Therefore, I decided to leave them in shirasaya and use some the money I would have spent on tsuba which I have become much more attracted to. I believe I have eliminated a lot of frustration in this way.

Well, I've pretty much decided to have my blade polished and put in shirasaya, and worry about koshirae later.

 

However, I still like the tsuba I bought and would like to find out more about it, in and of itself.

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