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Intricately Carved Koshirea - Nagamaki Blade??


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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390281965265&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

Can anyone comment on the blade?

 

Looks like the carving on the saya is the selling point, but is this a nagamaki...?

I do not think that you would put just any old blade in an outfit like that. Very nice work
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Hi Alex,

No I do not think it is a nagamaki blade. It is not uncommon to see Katana with this type of hi carved in to them. I assume the steep slope from the mune to shinogi and the naginata style hi were all intended to lihten the blade. but the overal shape is still katana rather than nagamaki naoshi.

regards

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Maybe i'm wrong but it looks like tourists item.

 

Agreed

 

Whats up with the partially drilled(?) ana?

 

Driller changed his mind and decided two was enough, or decided wood was easier to drill than steel.

 

This blade does not have the sugata or the nagasa of a nagamaki. Most likely a katana blade. Not an early blade by the looks of it and although it is claimed there is a hamon, one cannot be seen on the photographs.

 

IMHO its a bit suspicious, but then again I am a suspicious man. However, if it was really what it was claimed to be and of the quality that is claimed with the provenance that is claimed, then it would be in a Christies or similar auction.

No return policy by the seller and if its so good then why is it on ebay? :roll:

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Jacques,

 

The quality and intricacy of the carving is of quite a high level. The heads of the dragons look to be made of ivory (perhaps that is wishful thinking on my part...oxbone?) and the belly scales look like inlayed mother of pearl. The wood carving is detailed and would have been incredibly time consuming even with skilled hands.

 

Would such a piece have been intended only for the "tourist" market?

 

I remember a similar debate not too long ago regarding a tsuba that some members immediately wrote off as a "foreigners piece - for export only"; however some disagreed. A fairly interesting debate sprung from that topic regarding the "western aesthetic" with regards to tosogu (compared to that of the Japanese).

 

Not intending to start a flame war but could you justify what makes you think this is a "tourist" piece? It looks of high enough quality to be desired by tourists or locals alike...

 

P.S. Definately Meji...right?

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I thought the same as Jacques with this piece.

I'd go so far as to say the blade is a decent fake, too, as it just looks wrong.

Naginata hi is crude and shallow whilst the soe hi is crude and deep. Habaki is beveled and has no mune slot.

If the nakago wasn't reasonably shaped (allowing for the nasty ana) I'd say this was fake for sure but as it is, I just think it's a later, poor quality tourist blade.

 

Whilst the koshirae 'looks' to be well carved, it doesn't say Japanese to me.

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While livving in Kyushu the last last 16 months I saw several examples of this sort in collections kept at castles and 1 in a cultural hall in Hirado. The artists who carve such intricate designs on Okimono and netsuke aften try their hand at saya carving. To say this is a fake is absolutely preposterous. I see this all the time on this site where people just insert their opinions without being educated on the subject they are commenting on. The wood is even Japanese boxwood. The blade is almost certainly an heirloom that was fitted into this beautiful Koshirae by the artist. Whoever fit the blade obviously did some experimenting but it is certainly Nihon-To and if so definitely Nagamaki.

The owner deserves this all to be recognized.

Jim

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The blade is almost certainly an heirloom that was fitted into this beautiful Koshirae by the artist. Whoever fit the blade obviously did some experimenting but it is certainly Nihon-To and if so definitely Nagamaki.

The owner deserves this all to be recognized.

Jim

 

A skilled artist that did that to the nakago?

We're all entitled to our opinion, Jim.

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Sorry Jim but I also think the "definitely Nagamaki" is wrong.

This doesnt mean its not an authentic Nihon-To, to be honest I cant see enough detail to comment. But on shape alone it does not resemble any illustrated example of a nagamki that I have seen in more than 25 years of study.

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Hi all,

I think that the cost of restoration to the Koshirae (replacing the missing ox bone and shell) is much more than it's worth, so makes it :lipssealed: ???? and what serious collector would want it damaged?

Unless they want it for reference purposes or they like it enough themself to buy it! :dunno:

As for the blade, I would not say it was high end. But only my opinion.

All very interesting though!

 

Regards

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I see this all the time on this site where people just insert their opinions without being educated on the subject they are commenting on.

 

"People who live in glass houses........" etcetera etcetera.

 

definitely Nagamaki.

 

I have to agree with paul B. This is no Nagamaki, at least not by any comparison to illustrated or known examples. This is not to say the blade is not nihonto. The pictures we have to judge by are not definitive enough to make such a judgement nor do they show enough detail to make any judgement on quality. There is however a certain 'wrongness' to the blade which I find a bit disturbing.

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The pictures we have to judge by are not definitive enough to make such a judgement nor do they show enough detail to make any judgement on quality. There is however a certain 'wrongness' to the blade which I find a bit disturbing.

 

""TO SETTLE ESTATE. SWORDS ARE FOR SALE LOCALLY AND I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CANCEL THIS AUCTION." For sale locally? Were..in a pawn shop or antique store? I just took a good look at all the swords this seller has for sale and I have to agree completely that the pictures are just not of the quality that would allow someone to make an intelligent knowledgeable assessment on any of the swords in this group. The seller is not doing any favors to the heirs of this estate and is probably costing them quite a bit of money......unless the pictures are purposely blurred and not of the quality necessary to make an informed purchase?? I emailed the seller a question on one of these swords and have not received a reply as of yet..I think I will just pass on this one.

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I had the opportunity to handle and examine an almost identical mounting about 15 years ago which was owned by a local collector. The blade was authentic but nothing special; the carved wooden mounts with inlay of ivory were, what I considered to be, an exceptional example of the art of wood carving. This was not something done quickly or recently based on the quality of the work and the obvious age of the piece. In my opinion it was made for decorative purposes and probably for export at the begining of the Meji period- just my opinion. I think that some board members are a little quick to jump to the conclusion that anything for sale on ebay must be trash. I personally know of one sword that went juyo bought off e-bay and also a now papered Rai blade. I had the good fortune to buy on ebay a long signed, ubu Hizen Yukihiro katana which now has tokubetsu hozon papers. Let the buyer beware is the first rule of ebay, but IF youi know what you are doing ar are willing to take a risk there are occasional gems.

 

Dale

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Right now I am so pissed at e-Bay and their policies I could spit. A couple of thousand spent on what turned out to be a modern reproduction set of menuki. The seller knew it too. The day I got them I let him know my dissatisfaction and it went to arbitration. I had to show an NTHK or NBTHK refusal to prove my claim. You all know how long and expensive that would be, I was given two weeks. As to this koshirae. The carving is artful, sure, but, these types are not meant for serious collectors. If you want some nice wood carving with m.o.p. or ivory inlays just travel through China and you will see lots. Very pretty and cheap too. Better as furniture though. As to the blade, let's be serious. If it isn't signed, isn't papered and just doesn't feel right; be wary. John

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Dale wrote:

but IF youi know what you are doing ar are willing to take a risk there are occasional gems.

 

 

Dale,

the problem is that many think they are either knowledgeable or willing to take the risk and then when it goes wrong they realise they are less so. For every gem that we hear of there are countless hundreds, possibly thousands of bad buys.

I have been looking at and buying things from ebay for at least 10 and possibly 15 years ( but I confess mainly books). I have been a members of this board since it began. I cannot tell you the concern, frustration and annoyance that you feel when you look at posts from young, enthusiatic hopefuls who watch this board for a while and then rush out to buy what they think is a national treasure that only they have recognised.

It happens time and time again

What is worse is when you get the aggresive defence mode kick in and people start trying to down grade the knowledge of those more experienced people who dare to point out the error.

For the umpteenth time can I express the view which I think is shared by most serious, long term enthusiasts:

1. Ebay is definitely not the place for the beginner to buy swords and fittings.

2. Find good mentors, dealers with a reputation they wish to protect and those who are willing to help learners

3. If as a beginner or even a more advanced collector you insist on taking the risk, do not then "shoot the messenger" if they tell you what you have bought is bad. Its not their fault its yours.

4. Any comment here based on generally less than perfect images and the general level of learning can only be opinion. So comments about something being 100% right or wrong or definitely one thing or another are both inaccurate and misleading.

 

Sorry to jump on the soap box but this thread is going round the loop again of ebay is trash to ebay is great if you know what you are doing and back again.

Regards

Paul

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Paul, I agree with everything you said. E-bay is not terrible or wonderful, it can be either. It does furnish buyers, sellers and tire kickers of swords a venue to regularly "view" a wide variety of items both genuine and fake. I have seen newbies and experienced collectors make bad/good buys at shows, auctions and anywhere else swords are sold. When it comes to samurai swords knowedge is power. If you are not sure what you are buying then you shouldn't buy it unless you are willing to take your lumps when you are wrong.

 

Dale

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So....the assessment is; it's not a nagamaki or even a particularly decent blade - cant say I am shocked with these conclusions.

 

However John - can you really call this "trash"? Sure, it is a little gaudy but really, I know decent workmanship in woodcarving when I see it; it's not of the highest level by any means, but somewhat rare and desirable all the same. For the export market perhaps - but for 'tourists'?

 

I dislike the final execution..the tsuka could have been done better and the 'tsuba' looks terrible, but as for a sulpture in the rough shape of a koshirea its really not a bad piece of work. I dont think this is of chinese origin. Im thinking late meji or perhaps even post 1940.

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John,

I would say its place is 'decorative' but think it is also meant to be held and examined closely. The carving is deep, winding and cavernous. It is for running your eye over and is to be enjoyed. Usually the oxbone ones are not remotely as well carved...and when they are they fetch high prices.

 

Strangely enough, the way I see it is that in the modern world its 'place' isnt all that isnt all that different to that of a juyo blade - they both fall into the realm of decorative art for appreciation. I would argue that the relative importance between this carving and a juyo blade differs..a juyo blade being more relavent and of greater historical significance...but as for function or purpose...

 

This piece is a whimsy and not of great historical importance...but it is interesting and thought provoking as well as being quite an eyeful. Not exactly my taste, however if it were in slightly better condition, slightly better looking and slightly more original it would be...albeit at the very end of my taste bellcurve..if that makes any sense.

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John,

I would say its place is 'decorative' but think it is also meant to be held and examined closely. The carving is deep, winding and cavernous. It is for running your eye over and is to be enjoyed. Usually the oxbone ones are not remotely as well carved...and when they are they fetch high prices.

 

Whilst the carving is reasonable, I wouldn't get overly lost in it.

It is not deep and cavernous to my eye, but then I get to see lots of Chinese wood carving, living in HK and traveling through China.

If you want deep and cavernous, buy one of those Chinese puzzle balls with the seven layers. Now there's a lesson in carving and they're being cranked out at a rate of knots and cheap as chips.

 

Do a search for high quality carving images from Japan or China. Their quality is far, far superior to what we're seeing in the above sword.

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Hi Lee,

Yes of course you are right, there are many examples of fine wood carving to be found around China (I live there too) and I am of course familiar with the ubiquitous puzzle ball.... (I knew someone would cite that as a 'real' example of good carving, I have always wanted a mammoth ivory one...) but I stand by my point the carving we see on this piece is still deep, cavernous (haha) and of good quality. You dont often see sword scabbards like this. Bone and other materials have been integrated into this work also... ok, for fear of being labeled a shill Ill shut up now..

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"25 3/8" CUTTING EDGE" means that before Haitōrei such a "blade" could have been carried by a samurai only, and I can't see even the most drunk Samurai to walk around with this, nor to have it resting on a Katanakake. IMHO could have been made only for export, likely in Meiji,as already suggested. Not commenting all the rest, Hamachi and Munemachi seems to me too low to belong to a Nihonto.

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I can't see even the most drunk Samurai to walk around with this, nor to have it resting on a Katanakake. IMHO could have been made only for export, likely in Meiji,as already suggested.

 

This is a very valid point, and regardless of everything else it speaks to the argument that this sword was never meant for serious use. Such a sword would never be carried by a samurai or by even the most pretentious merchant (either drunk or sober). This being the case it can only be a sword for show or decoration at best. Its an export piece of dubious quality and possibly even more dubious origins, so why are we wasting time discussing it further?

 

Sorry.... My point here is that we have come full circle on this one. Without more information we can only speculate.

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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