Another really rare armor, the kusari dou.

[uwe]

Tate-eri, makes sense Eric....

Still some lessons for me to learn

Uwe

[DaveT]

You know looking in from the outside Cowboy's is a pretty accurate comment. However I can assure you that was never the case, hence the very reason why Mr Hopson joined the team. Not only did Jock add kudos, he also knew the staff and made the project more comfortable.

 

The comments were posted to the Toraba forum and aimed at it's armour loving community. I find it rather amusing that some folk are naive enough to believe that I would deface an original screen with a marker pen. Joking aside I'm a dedicated collector as Ian can validate, however I have a silly and poor sense of humor.

 

For the record every item was treated with the utmost care and respect. We were at the museum for nearly three weeks. The establishment was clean and tidy. All non displayed armours were kept in storage. Nearly 80% of what we opened were mixed up and some were rotting as the underground storage was clearly unsuitable. I didn't see 300 armour boxes in there either.

 

It took us some time and energy to convince the owners to allow us to re-match the mixed items. All in all, I felt that we left the collection in better order than we found it.

 

Trevor has released the first book, my name is present but apart from taking the photo's I had nothing do with its production or the soon to be released second volume.

 

Dave Thatcher

[Bugyotsuji]

Just something I heard in conversation the other day.

 

In pre-Edo warring times armour/armor was often pick 'n mix. People cobbled together whatever came to hand.

 

After the land was subjugated with the start of the Tokugawa reign, people began to devote more time to art, pleasing the eye and creating matching 'sets' of Katchu. Thus, despite the insistence of Westerners on procuring matching sets, a complete set often indicates a later date of manufacture.

[DaveT]

Just something I heard in conversation the other day.

 

In pre-Edo warring times armour/armor was often pick 'n mix. People cobbled together whatever came to hand.

 

After the land was subjugated with the start of the Tokugawa reign, people began to devote more time to art, pleasing the eye and creating matching 'sets' of Katchu. Thus, despite the insistence of Westerners on procuring matching sets, a complete set often indicates a later date of manufacture.

So cobbling together kinda says by definition that they were originally made as sets?

Why would a armour maker produce an odd set? Why would a customer commission one.

 

Sounds like BS to me.

[IanB]

Piers, David, Far from being 'BS' there has always been a trade in recycled armour parts. The notion that all buke were able to afford to commission an armour is also totally erroneous. Many lower ranking samurai were so desperately poor they had to be satisfied with what they could afford or had inherited. I remember commenting to a friend in Tokyo about a jingasa I had just bought at a flea market that it was a cheap one for a low ranking samurai. His comment was no, a low ranking samurai couldn't afford a jingasa. Very large numbers of armours have recycled parts in them, particularly helmet bowls but other parts as well. In most cases these will in the best case have been re-lacquered and re-laced to match, or just the latter if that is all the customer could afford. One of the armours sent to King James I is made up from just such a disparate collection, laced to match. If you read Sakakibara Kozan he states that it is not advisable to re-use kote since the metal is rather thin and that those parts had better be newly made. This implies it was quite normal to buy up second-hand bits annd assemble them into an armour. I would also mention the armour owned by Kuroda Nagamasa that has a helmet given to him by Fukushima Masanori that doesn't match the rest of the armour in any way, but he wore them together at Seki ga hara and at Osaka Castle. My dear of buddy W. Galeno had a delightful armour that had had the kamon on the fukigayeshi over-painted with another. A clear indication the armour had changed hands or at least the helmet had.

Ian Bottomley

[DaveT]

Hi Ian,

it's been a long time.

Just so you know I'm no longer married to Trevor.

 

I not writing off the recycling, as that Oda armour I have you clearly pointed out, was made up new and older parts.

 

It makes sense to grab what you could back in the day, and we know for a fact that the gear was very expensive.

I just think that most were given the make-over during the period. The odoshi is going to rot at some point, but it doesn't make the year of manufacture alter. So as a collector, just because it's matched doesn't indicate it's late. And that was my point.

 

There's without a doubt too much focus on matched suits with the collectors community, I've got a few composite suits that that look the nuts.

 

Dave

[estcrh]

Whether samurai for the most part wore completely matched armor is an interesting subject, my observations on armors I see for sale coming from Japan are that there seems to be many more high grade matching armors for sale than lower grade armors. It is not unusual to see completely matching mid to high grade armors and it is very rare to find completely matching low grade and ashigaru type armors. What is perfectly evident is the fact that many people who have armor for sale in Japan today have no problem breaking up completely matched suits of armor without even first attempting to sell the complete armor. I see armor after armor being sold by the piece. A very strange and disturbing turn of events. Right now I am watching a completely matching very high grade replica O-Yoroi armor being sold in pieces without any attempt to have sold it whole first, this is a very costly and from what I can see very accurate copy of an important historical armor that anyone who has an interest in samurai armor would love to own and it will be forever just some individual pieces scattered around the world.

[Justin Grant]

Eric-

 

Greed.... The reason most part the armor is because they can charge more for it in auction, you have to have 5-6 active auctions going and are bidding against many different people on each auction. Sad....

[estcrh]

Eric-

 

Greed.... The reason most part the armor is because they can charge more for it in auction, you have to have 5-6 active auctions going and are bidding against many different people on each auction. Sad....

Justin, it may be greed with some people but with so many people doing it I have to wonder if there is more to it, maybe a complete lack of interest in their own samurai history and a lack of understanding on how we in the west view their history, if it was pure greed why not at least try to ask a high price on the complete matched armor before breaking it up, it is known at least in the west that a matching armor is worth more than the individual parts. I was looking a the Japanese Wikipedia site and was really amazed at how little information there was on samurai armor and weapons as compared to the English and even the German Wikipedias.

 

 

Japanese Wikipedia

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%B2%E5%85%B7

 

German Wikipedia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie: ... C3%BCstung

 

English Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:S ... _equipment

[Justin Grant]

I take Japanese classes from a lovely young lady named Akiko. She saw my gusoku in the case and said she had never seen one in person and said such things are not taught about in Japan now days. She talked to her father (family still lives in Japan) and he was most interested and said he too knew very little about the history and the only armor he had seen was in a museum.

 

On contrast, I have only ever seen American Indian items on TV or museums, and I know people collect the stuff. I know the basic story, but could not tell you about each tribe, and outside of a few famous leaders, that is all! I must admit, if you are not interested in the detail behind your history, you will know very little. So maybe these individuals selling off pieces of family history know very little about it and don't know. Still sad.... Now I must make a conscious effort to study the American Indians!

[estcrh]

Well since my original post I have found a few more images of these very rare armors, here is one that recently sold in Japan, I was hoping nobody would notice it so I could afford it but no such luck, it sold for a rather high price and will probably not be seen again, I would describe this as a kusari tatami dou gusoku as it is a portable folding armor much like the karuta and kikko tatami dou gusoku. I looks like it got a lot of use and although its not pretty seeing items like this expands our knowledge of the subject. Just a few years ago it was common to hear people say that the samurai did not make and use full suits of chainmail (kusari) armor and with the exception of Ian's book it was nearly impossible to find any images online to counter that statement, now its a different story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kusunokimasahige]

[EDITED] Dave, you look like a knight who says "NI" in that image !!!

 

 

KM

 

Following this discussion with interest.

[DaveT]

Eric, you look like a knight who says "NI" in that image !!!

 

 

KM

 

Following this discussion with interest.

 

That's not Eric. It's me, and looking a bit younger too.

Ecky Ecky Ecky F'tang F'tang Olé Biscuitbarrel!!!!!!

[IanB]

Eric, An interesting kusari armour. Did you notice the following? At the sides of the dou, where the waki ita would be on an normal armour, the fabric substrate is red cloth. This is echoed on the kote with shobu gawa over the tekko. I also like the way they have used heavier links in the mail to create 'shino' over the forearms not to mention the tate waku design over the inside of the arms. By the way, I bet it was a real bas***** to get the two sized links to mesh together so neatly. Now, the suneate are on yellow fabric, yet they have the same mail 'shino' and the same shobu gawa. A splendid example of the old premise that the customer gets what he wants and a complete matching armour does not need to conform to our Western idea of what matches.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Eric, An interesting kusari armour. Did you notice the following? At the sides of the dou, where the waki ita would be on an normal armour, the fabric substrate is red cloth. This is echoed on the kote with shobu gawa over the tekko. I also like the way they have used heavier links in the mail to create 'shino' over the forearms not to mention the tate waku design over the inside of the arms. By the way, I bet it was a real bas***** to get the two sized links to mesh together so neatly. Now, the suneate are on yellow fabric, yet they have the same mail 'shino' and the same shobu gawa. A splendid example of the old premise that the customer gets what he wants and a complete matching armour does not need to conform to our Western idea of what matches.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, the armor maker just could not stand wasting a small scrap of yellow cloth he had sitting around, a couple of months ago I ran into something that made me think of this armor, it was a kusari katabira and zukin, at first it did not look to unusual except for the European style buttons, but on close inspection I saw that it has the same extra heavy kusari across the top of the arms and shoulders. This is only the second example of this type of kusari that I have seen, im not sure what this mail pattern is called but its interesting.

[DaveT]

Okay my dumb question for the day is.

Tatami, or Kusari Dou.

 

Were they used by the police, or samurai during late edo? There's seems to be little in the way of Mon on these things to indicate id, so were they restricted to that particular han.

Also when were they phased out, meji?

[kusunokimasahige]

I think they were used by several samurai from various ranks and others. Not only by ashigaru, but maybe also by metsuke.

Also, they were used well into the Meiji period.

 

Apparently the Shinsengumi used this kind of armor and variants of it and if I recollect correctly there are woodblock prints depicting the Boshin war where they use full mail armor like the kusari type and tatami type.

 

KM

[estcrh]

Okay my dumb question for the day is.

Tatami, or Kusari Dou. Were they used by the police, or samurai during late edo? There's seems to be little in the way of Mon on these things to indicate id, so were they restricted to that particular han.

Also when were they phased out, meji?

 

Dave, the Edo period police were samurai, the were assisted by non samurai helpers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period_police

 

I have seen many karuta, kikko and kusari armors that were very elaborate and were obviously owned by samurai, others were extremely basic, not much different than traditional armors but tatami armor has not been adequately represented in books and exhibits making them seem like a lessor armor, also images of this type of armor are not as easy to find as traditional armor images. Don Cunnunghams books on the Edo period police mention kusari as being worn and Anthony Bryants books mention tatami as being worn by ashigaru.....some people have taken that to mean that this type of armor was mainly worn by police or ashigaru but this is not the case from what I can see, tatami armors of all types were very common and worn by all classes of samurai and their retainers. Who would have worn this tatami armor? Certainly not an ashigaru or police on patrol.

[IanB]

Eric, I know that armour well having sewn the haidate and kote onto new brocade. As you say, a very well made tatami gusoku for a samurai. I have always been unsure exactly why they were made. The usual story is that they were carried when travelling but I'm only half convinced. This one belonged to Dr. Galeno and he also had one made for the Ii family. Its box was about 3/4 the size of a normal gusoku bitsu so I suppose it would have been a bit easier to tote about, but these guys would have had plenty of staff to fetch and carry. Since they suffer from the same problem that mail does - they don't stop the force of a blow, only stopping a sword cutting, why people had them made is perplexing. The only thing that really comes to mind is that they were probably more comfortable to wear, which in a time when you were most unlikely to be attacked, may have been a deciding factor.

Ian Bottomley

[kusunokimasahige]

When watching Throne of Blood again this evening I noticed many Tatami gusoku being used by the extras.

 

Knowing Kurosawa almost always used real armor, in stead of modern day productions which use a lot of plastic,

I always wonder how many of the suits of armor in several auctions you come across online are actually the props

of many of these films, and not "the genuine article"

 

Probably no one knows.

 

KM

[estcrh]

Eric, I know that armour well having sewn the haidate and kote onto new brocade

 

Ian, is there anything you dont do? Anyway you do good work. While it is true that higher ranking samurai would have had plenty of help carrying their armor, lower lever samurai would not have had that benefit. From the information I have gleaned about the period that this lightweight portable armor was worn, it was swords that were the primary weapon that would have been used and defended against, and this type of armor would have protected the wearer quite well from a sword attack. It seems if there was any actual fighting to do that higher ranking samurai would send in their retainers to handle the problem and they would only get involved when absolutely necessary, relegating their armor to a status symbol. Don Cunningham mentions higher ranking Edo period police would assist in an arrest only when necessary, riding in on a horse and wearing armor. I have seen a lot of lower level tatemi armor that shows actual wear and tear, not just deterioration, there are repairs of the armor and fabric, stains, signs of long use, I rarely see unused armor of this level, while I have seen higher level armors in near perfect condition.

 

 

As for why a high ranking samurai would have owned tatami armor we can only guess, maybe it just looked cool to them, and as you mentioned there was a comfort factor also, tatami armors are lighter and they breathe much better. I have also seen this type of armor labeled as "travel armor", which I believe comes from people trying to explain its use, I see it instead as being "portable" meaning that a lower level samurai who had to lug his armor and equipment around with out the help of several retainers would have used tatami armor with out a doubt, folding armors could be carried by one man, this is virtually impossible with a traditional armor. If your boss gave you the task of keeping the peace in your particular han I think tatami armor would have been the only practical choice. A full suit of kusari armor could weigh as little as 20lbs and it would have provided a distinct advantage over an un-armored opponent. Edo period prints show an abundance of light weight armor being worn by the average samurai while out and about, especially under clothing, this probably reflects what was seen by the artists, as opposed to Indo-Persian drawings and prints which show very little armor being worn.

 

Here is a lower level tatami armor I just saw for sale, lightweight, portable, with a cloth lining, very wearable and it provided good protection for the wearer.

[kusunokimasahige]

Eric, you say it is virtually impossible to carry a full suit of armor yourself.

 

I beg to differ. There are multiple depictions of samurai of lower ranks wearing hitsu on their back containing their armor.

the Yoroibitsu was widely used.

 

An example which could be carried as a backpack :

 

 

Not all hitsu were carried by two man with a pole. When well packed, a hitsu can contain all parts of your armor.

 

We know from several other cultures using armor that there were a lot of carrying methods, not only carrying your armor around your body while on the march, like the Romans, but also many medieval European warriors did, but also on carts when possible, or even yourself using a primitive form of backpack.

 

Personally I think that the most cumbersome equipment to be carried on any Samurai campaign where large armies would have travelled out to battle apart from weaponry and armor would have been the flags , sashimono as well as nobori and the jinmaku screens, and in rare occasions Akusha/Akunoya tents for the highest ranking officers.

 

KM

[estcrh]

Eric, you say it is virtually impossible to carry a full suit of armor yourself.

 

I beg to differ. There are multiple depictions of samurai of lower ranks wearing hitsu on their back containing their armor.

the Yoroibitsu was widely used.

 

An example which could be carried as a backpack :

 

Henk, yes armor could be transported from one place to another on a mans back, but that is not the same as carrying your personal armor every were you go, I do not think a samurai would go walking around Edo city all day with a huge 40lb-50lb box on his back, on the other hand tatami armor could be carried in a very small package depending on the type. During large campaigns pack horses were used along with other methods to carry supplies,

http://books.google.com/books?id=hpOpn8fbKgEC&pg=PA109&dq=samurai+pack+horse&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WWAqT5v4HI2WtwfPrZ3yAg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=samurai%20pack%20horse&f=true

[kusunokimasahige]

Hi Eric, I have the book you posted a link to, and of course tatami gusoku would be way less cumbersome to carry.

 

The image you posted last is of a Daimyo's procession, so in my opinion not the way every samurai would have carried his equipment around.

 

Indeed many Samurai walking around in a city environment would not always carry their armour in a hitsu, but it is also known that many of the higher ranking samurai slept, even on campaigns, in temples, farmsteads, houses, unlike the ashigaru who often slept in the rough.

 

It is however an interesting debate.

 

KM

[estcrh]

Henk, I added the wood carving as it shows a couple of different methods of carrying equipment, the very large palanquin type is interesting. I have never seen another carving like this one, if you take a look at the head of the procession you can see two commoners lowering themselves and waiting for the procession to pass.

[Iekatsu]

Eric,

Edo period prints show an abundance of light weight armor being worn by the average samurai while out and about, especially under clothing, this probably reflects what was seen by the artists, as opposed to Indo-Persian drawings and prints which show very little armor being worn.

Which prints are you referring to?

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you for the explanation Eric, have not seen a carving like that myself, did see a lot of those images in several books I have about the Dutch yearly trips to the Shogun's court in Edo.

 

Here is a documentary, Japan - Memoirs of a secret Empire, where if I recollect some depictions are given of Samurai processions, but I can be wrong. It has a chapter on the trips of the Dutch every year to Edo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope we are not veering too much off course...

 

KM

[estcrh]

Henk, some nice prints, I would like to see more close up images of processions.

 

T.Sinclair, if you look carefully at period prints you will often see armor being worn under the street clothing of samurai.

In "Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook,

the continued use of armor in the 200+yr Edo period as being common and a necessity is discussed.

 

During the more than two hundred years of the Tokugawa period, however, the need for protecting the body in combat was never completely eliminated. The struggle for power which the great houses had undertaken on the battlefield gave way (under the enforced pacification of the Tokugawa) to all manner of civil strife, political intrigues, duels, (both individual and collective), assassinations, which in turn spawned a rich assortment of light armor such as the under garment of fine mail (kusari katabira) and other secret protective clothing worn under the ordinary clothing by the affiliated warrior, the samurai or the ronin. Armored sleeves derived from the traditional kote could be concealed under an overcoat, as could a light tight fitting corselet (do) to protect the back and neck, and an armored collar (nodo-wa) which covered the shoulders. Thus even in times of comparative peace, the use of armor continued to influence the various specializations of bujutsu and, in its new dimension gave a new impetus to the development of methods of close range combat such as kenjutsu and jujutsu, which had evolved from ancient methods of long range combat such as kyukutsu and yarijutsu, werein the full suit of armor or yoroi played such a significant role.

 

 

A couple of examples. Here is a samurai wearing kusari represented by cross hatching on the neck and arms.

 

Here is a samurai wearing kikko armor, which are small hexagon leather or iron plates.

[estcrh]

For anyone who might be interested, here is a close up view of the unusual kusari pattern that was used on the kusari dou.

[Iekatsu]

The reality is that armour would only be worn when it was perceived that it would be required. The average samurai in the Edo period was an administrator, not a warrior, most would not personally own or require armour. instances where armour would be required were minimal at best outside of the very early and very late Edo, and generally related to policing. The armour did exist and was used, this is not in question and was likely worn in the ways depicted in the prints, but no where in your examples does it show that such armour would be carried or worn on a daily or even a regular basis. Like all armour of the period it would be stock piled either personally or collectively and pulled out and used when required.

 

Tatami armour was common because it was cheap and because it was and easy to store and cheap to maintain, the amount of protection given was adequate for the tasks it would be required for.

 

Tatami armour of higher quality, like the example posted by Ian is purely a reflection of taste of the person who commissioned it, in a time where it was quite unlikely that the armour would have to be used in combat by its owner, practical aspects of protection and usability generally gave way to the stylistic whims of the person commissioning it (there were of course many practical and serviceable armours produced during the Edo period, but there are just as many that are not). This is not to say that this particular example is impractical as armour but it would not need to be worn very often nor would it likely have to fulfill its defensive role.

 

Tom,