planned shirasaya turned into koshirae

[werner]

Hi,

 

I received a lovely tanto without kosirae and decided to make a shirasaya....half way through the project I thought it might be worth it to try to built your own koshirae as I had some spare bits such as tsuba, menuki, fuchi. Didn't damage any of these just included them in my construction....

 

Jock

 

PS: didn't attempt the hande-binding but will have it done by somebody in white silk ito...hope that fits colour-wise

[werner]

...some more...

[werner]

....and there is the question I wanted to add:

 

Is that in line with the philosophy on this board? Genuine parts haven't been altered/abused/damaged and can be taken at any time to fit into another koshirae - yet not all has been made in a traditional way...same glued to tsuka handle - nakago carved out of tsuka wood - genuine ray skin used - dried old hardwood for saya & tsuka these were fairly in line with traditional methods....the spraying of the same & layer and spraying on top of the saya wood these weren't exactly traditional....yet none of the antique parts have been altered such as filed/cut/painted etc......

 

sooo is this an accepted way to protect/preserve genuine nihonto parts or is there any ethical/methodical/philosophical argument against doing it this way?

 

Appreciate comments - negative as well as positive...

 

Jock

[Lee Bray]

Using hardwood is probably not a good idea as it can contain oils, resins or tannins.

Oak is well known for its corrosive properties when combined with carbon steel.

Honoki is very low in oils and does not harm steel which is why it is used.

Also be vary wary of the glue used to join the wooden components.

Some of the available wood glues can cause corrosion problems.

Let's hope you haven't spent time and money creating a rust box for your tanto.

[werner]

Hi Lee,

 

My apology I wrote hardwood but it is actually old honoki that I got a while ago....yet I'm very interested in what you stated concerning the oil in oak etc - I'm in Australia and we have lots of hardwoods here... is there anything comparable with honoki? And the oils/substances in certain woods do these disappear with age?

 

Concerning the glue - I used the average white wood glue to glue the same to the tsuka...now the tsuka wood is approx 2-3 mm thick at the thinnest place....a) would some moisture find its way through the wood to the nakago? How long would be an appropriate time to wait to "guarantee" that there is no moisture residue left of the glue?

 

Jock

[werner]

....forgot almost:

 

I also used this common white/milky coloured wood glue to attach the 2 honoki saya halfs of which I carved out the blade shape....again it would be interesting to find out what a save waiting time would be to ensure that there is no moisture left....I used only a very thin film of glue and put the saya in a press to let the glue dry...

 

Jock

[Lee Bray]

Honoki is a soft wood; from what I understand, magnolia, basswood, poplar and alder are used in the production of modern saya outside of Japan but this is going beyond the scope of this forum. The information is readily available on other sword and knife websites.

 

Oils can take a long time to leech out of a wood. They are part of the properties of a wood and do not disappear quickly.

 

It's not moisture in the glue soaking through the wood you have to worry about, it's the chemical make up of the glue that is the problem.

Titebond II & III have an additive that corrodes steel long after the glue is dry. Titebond, however, doesn't.

 

These questions and pitfalls are what makes a craftsmen worth his trade.

[Brian]

...sooo is this an accepted way to protect/preserve genuine nihonto parts or is there any ethical/methodical/philosophical argument against doing it this way?....

Jock,

I do believe this is neither an accepted way to preserve, nor protect parts. This is just basic hobby work with expensive parts, and emphasizes why it takes 5 to 10 years of study in Japan to do this stuff. Did you carve out the inside of the saya offset so that it doesn't ride on the edge? No sandpaper used at all? Leave the small oil recess at the bottom of the saya? The shape of the saya is wrong....I could go on.

Perhaps no damage to the parts, but nothing gained here either in terms of the study and preservation of Nihonto.

I think SFI has a good section on hobby work, this isn't a DIY forum. Sorry to be harsh, but it is well known that we don't discuss amateur refurbishing of Nihonto, whether it be mounting or polishing.

 

Brian

[werner]

...point taken....that's why I asked...

 

Jock

[sanjuro]

Jock.

 

As a guess, and being also in Australia, I assume you used Aquadhere to glue the saya parts etc together. If that is the case dont leave the blade in this koshirae! Aquadhere is a chemically corrosive glue when used in proximity to steel! In a matter of days it can and will cause a fine rust to begin coating the blade. Not nice stuff at all.

[ububob]

Hi Jock, your questions are good but your timing is a little off. The time to ask is before you get the project underway.

You might also consider using rice glue. It's easy to make (even I can do it) and there is a thread or two on this board that discuss the process.

[werner]

Hi,

 

....thanks for the feedback....will look for the post with the rice glue.....and yeap..my timing was not the best....I guess I wasted about 15 hours....should have asked first = I guess that can be called a "learning experience"

 

Thanks heaps!

 

Jock