What is more important, Kantei or picking a good sword?

[reinhard]

Paul, basically I agree with your comments. I don't like Sue-Soshu style very much myself. Not many people do.

 

What I was up to:

You don't need to like a sword for its particular style. But even within every school and every tradition there are blades which are better made than others, technically and/or aesthetically. In order to see these differences one needs to study basics thoroughly at first. What makes good jigane? What separates good nie from bad one? What makes a good horimono? and so forth. Even with a dislike for Sue-Soshu style (or for any other style) one needs to understand these basic criteria.

And sorry, folks: You won't learn them from pictures alone, or from blades you've found in garage sales.

Having understood these criteria, one will be capable of telling why MASAMUNE was a better craftsman and a better artist than HIROMITSU, and why HIROMITSU was in greater esteem with the samurai than FUSAMUNE. At the same time one will understand why Tsuta SUKEHIRO is considered far superior to his father "Soboro" wether one likes Osaka ShinTo or not.

 

To give you an example for what I mean:

Last fall I made a short trip to Nagoya. Originally I went there to see the seven Kokuho blades in a row in the Tokugawa museum during its special exhibition, but afterwards I spent half a day on the grounds of Atsuta Jingu (a place I recommend very much BTW). In their little museum they were having a special exhibition of ShinSakuTo with many price-winning blades for display. Though technically on a pretty high level these swords had this superficial touch most ShinSakuTo have. Being polished in a flashy way wasn't exactly helpful either; but maybe this is just part of 21st century's culture. Anyway, there were some old blades in the same room a few yards away. Among them was a Juyo Bunkazai tachi by Bizen KANEMITSU. Compared to THIS all ShinSakuTo looked like toys for boys. Depth and complexity of the KANEMITSU tachi, its outstandingly balanced utsuri and its overall dignity and grace blew my head off. In order to understand this experience, kantei with "good" blades is a must. I'm sure most tourists (yes, that means most of you, my little Hobbit friends) would have picked one of the ShinSakuTo if they have had a choice.

In order to understand what I'm talking about you need to understand three things:

1. You have to study theoretical basics thoroughly. This can be done almost everywhere in the world where books are delivered. Pick up the reliable ones. Stay away from the outdated crap.

2. You have to go where the good blades are. They won't come to you and pics are no substitute. It's quite easy in Japan, less easier in Europe and in the States, but there are local branches of NBTHK, museums with interesting collections, local study groups and the like. If you are living in another part of the world you have to establish priorities for yourself. Will you make your next vacation a nice stay in the Caribbean, sipping drinks in the sun and staring at what you can't get, or will you make it a stay in Japan? Real interest in NihonTo is mostly welcomed there. Your choice. Discuss it with your wife, girlfriend...

3. Stay away from semi-educated antique dealers, (most) public auctions, ePay, self-declared sword-polishers with short stage(s) in Japan ("trained by a master togishi!") and the like and most important: Don't trust anyone who wants to sell in the first place. Usually there's no such thing as a "win-win"-situation when it comes to (NihonTo) business.

 

Finally I would like to give you some other advice about understanding NihonTo. An object of craftsmanship/art cannot be understood without deeper knowledge of the circumstances and the surroundings in which it was made. Every now and then I get the idea that appreciation of fine arts gets more and more difficult in a world going faster and louder every day. The old-timers have an advantage here, provided their memory is serving them well. In order to understand what people enjoyed and appreciated in the past, it is helpful to know what their world was like two hundred or thousand years ago. - Right now I'm not reading about swords. My lecture is "The Last Tosa". It's a biographical book about the life and times of Iwasa Matabei, a famous painter during late Momoyama and early Edo period. It gives a lively picture of Japan during this particular time and the changes taking place after the fall of Osaka castle. If one's understanding of NihonTo is supposed to improve, books like these are definitely more helpful than pushing "Kill Bill" or "The Last Samurai" in your DVD player for the seventh time.

 

Saying it in short: It's kantei that will get you anywhere. Picking up "good swords" cluelessly is for boys and doesn't need to be discussed seriously.

 

reinhard

[xxlotus8xx]

Reinhard:

That was a excellent post. I applaud you. Sound straight forward advise.

 

Thank you

[Lee Bray]

Indeed, an excellent post.

Thank you, Reinhard.

 

(yes, that means most of you, my little Hobbit friends)

 

The same Hobbits that found the ultimate treasure, kept if safe and ultimately had the strength of will to destroy it and save mankind, thereby allowing us to indulge our interest in NihonTo?

I'd say that allows them a little civility and respect in my book.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

In my opinion, comparison between Shinsakuto and Kanemitsu is a nonsense, it's the same than comparing Rembrandt or Léonard de Vinci with Buffet or Picasso. Each smith must be compared with others smiths of the same era. who can say that Gassan Sadatoshi or Ono Yoshimitsu cannot be better or comparable than Kanemitsu if they had lived at the same time and had disposed the same raw material ?

 

It would be more logical comparing Hiromasa with Hirotsugu than Hiromasa and Mizuta Kunishige for sample.

[Jean]

my little Hobbit friends

 

O Lord, this rings well to my ear

[Ken-Hawaii]

It has always been my goal to try very hard to obtain only those Nihonto that were the best-made of their particular period/era, & I've seldom had any qualms when I did so. That's not to say that I've never bought other blades for study, but almost always for comparison with the best-in-class.

 

Excellent post, Reinhard!!

 

Brian, is there any way that Reinhard's post can be permanently posted?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Who can say that Gassan Sadatoshi or Ono Yoshimitsu cannot be better or comparable than Kanemitsu if they had lived at the same time and had disposed the same raw material ?

 

Not a bad point.

Effectively, power hammer, light bulb, priority in choosing Tamahagane and the harsh life condition of today's Japan weren't bashing Kanemitsu back then.

[Kevin]

most important: Don't trust anyone who wants to sell in the first place.

 

What no one? Taken to its logical conclusion, that argument means that you shouldn't buy from anyone who is selling because they are, by definition, not to be trusted if they want to sell. Presumably you should only trust people who want to give swords away or who are selling but don't want to sell. :D Well, in the first instance, if someone wants to give me a boxful of Juyo swords, I'll be very happy to recieve it. :D In the second, that does rather open the door to taking advantage of someone who presumably desperately needs to turn their sword back into money in order, for example, to cover bills. I'll leave folks ponder the ethics of taking advantage of somebody in such straits.

 

Trust is not something that should be easily given in any walk of life. Trust has to be earned - on both sides. There are dodgy buyers as well as sellers

 

Usually there's no such thing as a "win-win"-situation when it comes to (NihonTo) business.

 

Of course there is. That's when the buyer gets exactly what they wanted, with no surprises, at a price that they were happy with, and the seller makes a reasonable profit that allows them to continue in business and support their family.

 

Contrary to Marx, selling things to people is not necessarily one long rip-off. To my mind that's a good way to go out of business, because eventually folks see that the Emperor has no clothes. Mind you, I prefer the model of business exemplified by the Quakers as opposed to the idea of capitalism red in tooth and claw. But then I've been told that I'm odd.

 

Oh, as for Caribbean holidays - never had one, wouldn't want one (far too hot) but wouldn't mind being able to afford the time and spare money involved in taking one. Though the prospect of taking our 3 year old daughter on a plane is a bit nightmarish.

 

Kevin

[Jean]

Usually there's no such thing as a "win-win"-situation when it comes to (NihonTo) business.

 

Fully agreed on that one Reinhard, and I have been in International business for more than 30 years.

It is never Win -Win in our brave new world (Aldous Huxley has very well defined it and put it into words through Mustapha Mond). That is why there are so many people unemployed, factories closing, people being thrown out of their houses for not paying their bills... people being underpaid, children mining ....

[paulb]

Careful Jean at this time of good will to all you will have me sinking in to the depths of despair.

for the first time I can ever remember I have to disagree with you. Of course there is a win-win situation. If the buyer buys something, they are happy with both the item and the price they paid for it and the seller is equally happy with the sale how is that not be a win-win? True when the buyer comes to move on the piece they may not recover their money or make a substantial profit but that doesnt mean they were cheated in the first place.

I am now entering my 40th year of international business and have been fortunate enough work around the world. During that time I am sure I have been deceived on occassion and occassionally got a less good deal than I might have hoped. But in the vast majority of cases the transaction was mutually beneficial and usually resulted in further orders.

The same is true with swords. I have rarely felt I have been cheated, taken advantage of or even screwed. When I have, it has to be said it was more a result of my greed and stupidity than someone elses delibrate dishonesty. On the other hand I have bought swords from Japan the USA and Europe which I have been delighted with. Equally the sellers have always been happy to do further business, some I would regard as friends as well.

That I think is a win-win situation.

[Jean]

Hi Paul,

 

Not when you are in a highly competitive environment. As a Company, you have to sell for surviving whatever the price and the buyer has all the opportunity to pick up at his own price, it is not win-win deals. Where are French/English factories?

 

Look at the "For sale" where a lot of good swords/tsuba remain unsold or sold at loss, I don't call win-win a guy who is ready or who is compelled to sell whatever the price an item to foot his bills.

 

I understand very well what Reinhard means in case of Nihonto/kodogu and I must agree with him because I have witness it on different occasions (If not in many)

 

On the other hand I have bought swords from Japan the USA and Europe which I have been delighted with. Equally the sellers have always been happy to do further business, some I would regard as friends as well.

That I think is a win-win situation.

 

It is my case also

 

But, don't you worry, I don't feel gloomy (in spite of the weather) :D

[paulb]

I think we are crossing wires here. I understand completely your point about manufacturing in France and the UK. However the same people who complain about the loss of the European textile industry for example are equally happy to buy cheap goods in supermarkets which have been made in low cost environments. manufacturing has travelled the globe from one poor region to the next to ensure western consumers can buy their goods at low cost.

 

My point about swords is that when you buy a blade I dont think you should autmatically assume you will sell it at a profit or even the same price at some point in the future. Antiques go in and out of fashion and while they offer greater stability than consumer goods they can still fluctuate dramatically. The obvious example are the swords in the Compton or manno collections which achieved incredible prices at auction. I doubt any of them subsequently hit those prices on re-sale.

 

There is a difference between buying , selling at a slight loss down the road having had many years of enjoyment out of a piece, and buying at an inflated price or being offered a very low price when desperate to sell. Both of these happen neither are a pleasant part of our interest. But they are also not unique to our area.

As said previously on many occassions there are some very good and honorable dealers in this field. Identify them and build a relationship with them. It is in their interest to deal with you fairly. As you say we have done this for many years and I am very comfortable buying from those people (assuming I ever have any money!)

[Jean]

However the same people who complain about the loss of the European textile industry for example are equally happy to buy cheap goods in supermarkets which have been made in low cost environments. manufacturing has travelled the globe from one poor region to the next to ensure western consumers can buy their goods at low cost.

 

Fully agreed, and I have been making exactly the same comments for years, adding that they don't understand why their factory was closing and that they were thrown out.

 

In fact, who I was referring to, and probably Reinhard ,was not dealers, they are very friendly and very easy to deal with, I have never had any problems with them and consider them as friends. Should not they be, they'll be out of job

 

I was referring to some collectors/individuals who in meetings are ready to jump on the newbies to sell them their low end stuff at high prices.

 

In fact, all this discussion could be sum up by : what is a fair price?

[paulb]

I think we are in agreement. I have also seen what you describe and many would be students turned off early in their career.

Re Fair price can only truly be determined by the buyer. if they happy with what they bought and paid for one could argue it is fair. However that does not allow for the type of transaction you mentioned when the inncoent are delbrately misled and taken advantage of.

[Jamie]

In fact, all this discussion could be sum up by : what is a fair price?

 

This is a tough question.

 

what is it worth?

It's worth what the market will bear -at any given time.

 

Was it a fair price- You really know more upon selling- being able to recoup your initial investment or not. Even then- you'd have to make sure it was going to someone who had some idea- then we're back to if buyer and seller are happy, was it bad?

Nihonto seems a bit different than most other fields. Obviously still driven by demand. Not much escapes that one.

My thoughts.

[Kevin]

I was referring to some collectors/individuals who in meetings are ready to jump on the newbies to sell them their low end stuff at high prices.

 

I've also heard of the opposite - collectors/individuals at meetings persuading newbies that their sword is worth far less than it actually is in order to buy it cheaply themselves. Plus other dodgy stuff. Whether the accounts I've heard are accurate or not - dunno, wasn't there, so can't comment. The folks who've told me things like this weren't however the newbies concerned; they were just a bit taken aback by the lack of ethics.

 

Fair price can only truly be determined by the buyer. if they happy with what they bought and paid for one could argue it is fair. However that does not allow for the type of transaction you mentioned when the inncoent are delbrately misled and taken advantage of.

 

Agreed on both counts. That's why I give folks seven days after receipt to make sure that they are happy with a purchase. It's not in my interests to have unhappy customers. They pay me, I send them the sword, and they then have seven days after it arrives to make sure that they are really happy with their purchase. If they're not, they can send it back and I'll refund them what they paid. Simple really.

 

Actually quite a few folks become friends as well as repeat customers.

 

Kevin

[xxlotus8xx]

Don't trust anyone who wants to sell in the first place. Usually there's no such thing as a "win-win"-situation when it comes to (NihonTo) business.

 

reinhard

 

This is sound advise. Trust is something that should be earned and purchases researched prior. Example. Go walk on a car sales lot and watch the salesmen vultures converge. If you at least show up armed with the research you are far less likely to get burned.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Was it a fair price- You really know more upon selling- being able to recoup your initial investment or not.

 

Jamie, I really hope we're not getting sidetracked into a discussion about Nihonto as an investment! The pros & cons of buying & selling blades at a "fair price" is already off-track from the topic of kantei versus picking a good sword, & the original thread has been quite interesting to follow.