What is more important, Kantei or picking a good sword?

[David Flynn]

What do you think is more important, The ability to pick a good sword, or the ability to kantei? Personally, I will go with picking a good sword.

Since I have been concentrating on collecting Gendaito, I haven't been studying older swords like I did when I started. What I believe has happened though, is the ability to recognise a good sword. There are many levels of Gendai out there. From very average, to very very good(excellant). I have a friend who concentrates on Koto and thats what he likes. I have other friends who collect across the whole spectrum. What collecting Gendai has allowed my to do is, appreciate the difference between an average sword and a good sword. Why has this happend? because I have been able to concentrate on what makes a sword good. sugata, hataraki etc. Also I believe this concentration has helped whilst picking through the roughies. I have held many, many swords in my hands and believe I can pick a sword worth collecting. Also my critearia has changed. No longer do I try to collect any Nihonto, I have learned to be discerning. My critearia is: Is the sword worth preserving? Is the sword value for money? and do I like it?

We all have different critearia in regards to collecting Nihonto. There really isn't any right or wrong, Just opinions and just because my opinion may not match yours, vive la difference.

[John A Stuart]

鑑定 Kantei, judgement, expert opinion; 鑑 take warning from, learn from. Kantei-kai, a sword appreciationl meeting, it can be just a group of friends or judges issuing certificates. How could one pick a good sword unless they judge for themselves by what they have learned? That is kantei. Picking a good sword is kantei. John

[David Flynn]

Well you have me there, Kantei wins. Thanks John.

[paulb]

Hi david,

As John suggests the original reason for doing kantei was to determine whether a sword was of good quality. To assess the quality it does in part need to be viewed in context, does it exhibit the features you would expect from a given period, school, smith.

I understand your point about being able to recognise quality without necessarily being able to identify a blades origin. However if you can put what you are seeing in to context by assessing the features against what you would epxect to see from a given school I believe the experience and enjoyment are enhanced.

Many years ago I said to my then mentor "I just collect what I like" His immediate response was "Fine, study more and you will understand what you like better".

Kantei is an extremely useful learning tool. For the past few years I have been attempting the NBTHK monthly kantei which appears in their magazine. Although not the same as a proper hands on exercise it is still an incredibly valueable learning tool. Having made an initial assessment I am forced to go back and re-look at references double check features etc. It is an extremely effective learning tool and yes I believe it does also enhance the ability to appreciate good swords better. As you would expect I think I learn more from those I get wrong than I do the correct ones (which based on my success rate is probably just as well:-))

[Bruno]

Hi David,

 

I like the way you think about picking a good sword. I fully agree on any point.

[reinhard]

What do you think is more important, The ability to pick a good sword, or the ability to kantei? Personally, I will go with picking a good sword.

 

Define "good sword", if you please, and don't stay in the vague ("sugata", "hataraki" etc.).

 

reinhard

[Grey Doffin]

David,

What you say reminds me a lot of something I used to say when I was fairly new to Nihonto. I was sure that my innate ability to recognize quality (innate because it certainly didn't arise from diligent study) in spite of my serious deficiency in kantei skill would lead me unerringly to treasures. It did and I spent $5,000. for a beautiful tachi: beautiful hada, beautiful hamon with resplendent hataraki, beautiful sugata, everything was perfect.

And then Mr. Tanobe told me it was retempered.

There can be no substitute for study; without it you are left with hubris (and retempered swords).

Grey

[nagamaki - Franco]

A reminder, according to Sato's writings in the NBTHK (English) Journals, the 2nd step in kantei is judging quality. He goes on to note and discuss that this 2nd step is too often left out of kantei. Which probably explains a lot ......

 

Another thought worth mentioning is that the swords we might think of today as being "good", may one day not look so good to our eyes as we continue learning.

[b.hennick]

I agree with Franco. I loved my first sword a WWII blade. I thought that is was wonderful. I still have it. Then I fell in love with Shinto Hizen blades. Masahiro was my ideal. Now I have moved again to Koto blades. I think that Soshu and Yamato blades as great. I expect that your view of "good" will change as well. Yesterday at a club meeting I saw some excellent Shinshinto blades. They too were quality blades. Good quality blades are always worth looking at. Knowing what you are looking at it also important - that is where kantei comes in.

[David Flynn]

I think I may have been misunderstood. I have done quite a lot of study, I have been collecting for many years. When I began studying, I began with the gokoden. Although this is important and still important to me, I now no longer bother with the older smiths. I still admire their work and love to look at them, though they are no longer my passion.

Barry, I agree my tastes have changed over the years. I appreaciate swords from all periods.

Reinhard, show me some swords and I will pick the good ones for you. :D and I'll try not to be sanctimonious.

[paulb]

Franco and Barry make an interesting point regarding changes in taste or focus. The question is, is this change a result of greater learing and education which enhances appreciation or just a natural progression in to new fields?

I have also changed my focus over the years, starting as most did with a Gunto purchase ( I had that blade for 14 years) then in to an almost exclusive Hizen phase focussing on the Tadayoshi's rather than Masahiro although I did have one shodai Masahiro blade I loved. Finally moving in what I suppose is a logical progression in to Yamashiro, Enju and Aoe work. I am also a closet Ko-Bizen and Ichimonji enthusiast but have no examples of either in my current collection.

I think as Barry intimated focus changes as you learn more. Once you learn to look for and see finer points in blades your appreciation increases. One of the best ways to start seeing finer points is to do kantei. I think you look more closely and in greater detail when doing this. I think it also promotes a discipline in to the way you look at and analyse a blade. It has little to do with getting the right answer and proving you are a clever boy (or girl) but much more about focussing study and improving understanding.

[Guido]

If one is blessed with innate good taste, he may develop expertness by listening and looking, like gifted students who earn degrees without cracking a book. For most of us, however, reading, discussing, examining, studying - and 'yes', doing Kantei - are an essential though happy regimen for graduation to connoisseurship. The emotional response to a superb Nihontô may be as intense for the collector who never learned any "technical" information as for the expert, just as the emotional response to music may be as great for the listener who can't hum a tune as for the trained musician. But the intellectual pleasure, if not the emotional response, of the musician is profoundly enhanced by his understanding of theme, harmony, and counterpoint.

[Markus]

The emotional response to a superb Nihontô may be as intense for the collector who never learned any "technical" information as for the expert, just as the emotional response to music may be as great for the listener who can't hum a tune as for the trained musician. But the intellectual pleasure, if not the emotional response, of the musician is profoundly enhanced by his understanding of theme, harmony, and counterpoint.

 

I´ll fully subscribe to that.

Somewhat offtopic but that´s IMHO exactly the difference between "I bought it because I like it" and "I bought it because I like (AND understand) it."

[David Flynn]

Here is where my naivety and ignorance has come to the fore. I thought Kantei was naming the smith using attributes. Not realising that what I have been doing with my friends for years, was kantie. I appoligise for what this thread has turned out to be. Of course one may not be able to pick a good sword, without many years of study.

[sanjuro]

David.

What this thread has actually achieved through discussion is to clarify for some of the newer collectors exactly what kantei is. I am sure that many of them think as you did and do not see kantei as something that they will be doing either consciously or not, each at his own level of experience, when they look at a sword or when they buy a sword. If anything and most importantly it has placed kantei in its necessary context with collecting for those who had considered kantei in quite a different light.

No apology necessary in my humble opinion. :D

[reinhard]

Reinhard, show me some swords and I will pick the good ones for you. :D and I'll try not to be sanctimonious.

 

David, I can't show you any swords online, which is in the nature of NihonTo. By asking for it you are outing yourself (once more).

 

Nevertheless I'd like to add some spice to a otherwise repetitive discussion.

You see five close-ups of swords here. Tell us which one is the "good sword", and most important, tell us why.

 

The rest of the bunch is invited to comment, of course.

 

reinhard

[David Flynn]

Reinhard, Sorry I don't do online Kantei. And yes I've outed myself, I'm an Idiot. Oh well. I really don't care do you? That's the joy of being an idiot.

 

P.S.

I meant physical kantei. Why not come to the Sydney Shinsa and we can have a chat.

[Lee Bray]

My guess would be the middle sword based on my opinion that it has the clearest, most consistent nioi-guchi.

[Muki]

Reinhard, may I take a stab at this (pun intended) :lol:

 

Of the swords you posted I like the 2nd and the fifth. The reasons why? I like the way they looked. I dont like engravings very much personally. I like the character of the blades as you have them pictured. If something is to be appreciated as art it doesnt require one to go looking for a name on the piece. Art is for the appreciation of the one who experiences what they see or feel. If that person likes a particular sword then that is the best sword at that time in comparison to what other swords that person has experienced. To pursue names or physical properties isnt appreciation of art, its systematically analyzing a sword as a potential investment or status symbol. Well, thats how I see it anyhow. If I like the way a piece of art makes me feel then thats what I am interesting in buying. Now, the price may be too high for me to afford because of particular qualifiers based on the investment crowd in the "Japanese Art Sword" population and that's the reality of the evolution of sword collecting. Of course, I am probably wrong but thats an opinion too.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think this kind of asking is a little bit ridiculous, it is impossible (IMHO) to say something about these blades, based on one picture which shows partially the swords.

 

I would also add "a good sword" is not in my opinion an adequate word. All swords able to kill properly are good swords, a few of them can be called art object.

[estcrh]

Reinhard has indicated many times that certain aspects of high level swords can not be viewed through pictures and have to be seen in hand and even then with out the proper knowledge you may not understand the significance of what can be seen.

[Guido]

Sword in hand is of course always the way to go, but I think the pictures show enough detail to comfortably Kantei them as Sôshû school blades.

 

1, 3, 4 & 5 are Nioi-based and therefore Sue-Sôshû.

1, 3 & 5 = Takahiro, Tsunamune or Fusamune

4 = Hiromasa?

 

2 is more "classic" with lots of Nie and other activities, i.e. Nambokuchô period. Maybe Akihiro, but more likely Hiromitsu.

 

That's as far as I can go based on my impression of the photos (the Oshigata might be a little misleading and doesn't correspond well enough with the pic).

 

If we define a "good" sword as one of artistic merit, i.e. an "art sword", then all five are "good swords". Personally I would pick # 2 as the best of them.

 

Disclaimer: If I was off in my Kantei, I hereby retract my above statements and announce that it's impossible to judge swords from photos or Oshigata.

[Brian]

Guido...nice one.

Yep..Soshu den, and all "good swords"

Good may be subjective, but in this case it would be obvious that good swords would be swords considered worthy of preservation, and in most cases.. of a higher level than that.

Ignoring the horimono, which wouldn't usually be done on terrible swords, you can tell these have had a high level polish too..which tells a lot.

I am not versed enough to attempt kantei on these, but the usual high level Soshu den smiths are represented imho.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Whilst I would not even attempt a serious kantei of these blades, firstly because I'm just not good enough to get a great deal of real detail out of photographs. Secondly because I like Soshu blades so much I'm just in hog heaven with the pics. Quite frankly I'd give a home to any of them. Do I see a Masamune blade there?

[Markus]

2 is more "classic" with lots of Nie and other activities, i.e. Nambokuchô period. Maybe Akihiro, but more likely Hiromitsu.

 

I´m leaning out of the window and say the opposite, i.e. rather Akihiro than Hiromitsu, just because I have the strange imagination that

a narrowing of the hamon towards the habakimoto is more common for Akihiro.

On the basis of these small details, I would pick blade 2 or 4.

[reinhard]

Reinhard, Sorry I don't do online Kantei. And yes I've outed myself, I'm an Idiot. Oh well. I really don't care do you? That's the joy of being an idiot.

P.S.

I meant physical kantei. Why not come to the Sydney Shinsa and we can have a chat.

 

Sorry David, I didn't mean to provoke you (well, a little, maybe). What I was actuallly up to was, getting a vague notion of your idea of a "good" sword.

There are repeating discussions going on for years on NMB: What is a good sword? How is it determined? Who does/did so and what are the criteria these judgements are based on? "Art vs. weapon" and so on and so forth.

I was hijacking your thread to settle a few things. At least for a short while, until the same old statements ("I know what I like!", "It's all about warrior's use!", "Stop degrading ShinGunTo!"...etc) will pop up for the next time.

 

Living in central Europe and engaged in a job which has nothing to do with Japanese swords, I won't make it to Sidney in the near future, but eventually we will meet in Japan one day.

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

Thank you for joining me in this little game, my friends. Apart from the fact there is no substitute for real blade-in-hand kantei, there was very little material to judge from. You did quite well. Congrats.

 

Apart from creating a little fun eventually, I've picked these examples for a reason. They are supposed to promote a reasonable discussion about "good swords" and what makes them.

 

These swords are (from left to right):

 

- Katana (2/1/7), ubu, mumei, attributed to Soshu FUSAMUNE (later Muromachi period)

It is published in "Meito Zukan" by the Fujishiro's, vol.11. They are saying that ji and ha are very well made. The horimono was made before the edge was hardened and horimono is of very high quality. However, there are many nioi-gire and this is probably the reason why this blade was left unsigned. According to Fujishiro's comments, nioi-gire has no effect on wether the sword is practical for fighting. Judging by its overall qualities, it was commissioned by a high ranking samurai.

 

- Tanto/Ko-Wakizashi (1 shaku), mei: "Sagami (no) Kuni Junin HIROMITSU" with nengo: "Koan ni nen 10 gatsu hi" (1362).

This is the highlight and the most precious jewel in this assembly.

 

- Wakizashi (1/6/9), mei: KAGEFUSA (sashi-omote) FUSAMUNE (sashi-ura)

This is a very rare ga-saku (joint work) by FUSAMUNE and KAGEFUSA, dating from around Eisho era. According to Fujishiro's comments, it is well made.

 

- Wakizashi (1/5/8), mei: Soshu (no) Ju HIROMASA"

A well made wakizashi, typical for this school, and with a nice horimono. It is dating from around Bunmei era.

 

- Katana (2/3), mei: "Taira (no) SADAMORI"

It was made around Tembun era in Bungo province. A nice and healthy sword.

 

Now: What is a good sword?

 

BTW I also intended to provide you with some mind-food about yubashiri, hitatsura, tobiyaki, shimaba and the like. There's another thread going on about this very subject. It might be interesting to know that hitatsura in Sue-Soshu style was developped out of the strong yubashiri of earlier top Soshu masters. These later approaches went over the top though, and Sue-Soshu's works are not considered nearly equal to those of their famous idols in Kamakura. HIROMITSU and AKIHIRO are supposed to be a kind of link between the outstanding qualitiies of old Soshu masters and slightly superficial Sue-Soshu style.

 

To find out the reasons why, amongst many other questions concerning NihonTo, is one of the most fascinating roads you can go in life. It will lead you to encounters with most interesting people and lead you to great places you have never dreamt of.

On the other hand you are free to insist your tired and worn ShinGunTo is still fit for "warrior's use" (as it was when it was used for decapitating POWs). Your choice.

 

Thanks

 

reinhard

[raven2]

Thanks Reinhard,

 

A very interesting and educational "game". :D

[Muki]

Reinhard,

 

Thank you for the posting of the 5 swords and then following up with the information as you did. Seeing the photos and then the conclusions is of great interest.

 

Thanks!

[paulb]

Thank you reinhard for an interesting addition to the thread. Looking at your examples brought another point to mind. Just because it is a good sword it doesnt mean you have to like it.

I confess that I do not generally like Soshu swords, especially later ones. Although I do not dispute the technical quaity and workmanship in their manufature I just find them aesthetically unattractive. Basically they are too loud and "blousy". Having said that I have also seen in hand swords by some of my favourite smiths such as Rai Kunitoshi that have left me totally flat, they had as much to see as a yard of pump water.

The point I think I am getting to is that what makes a good sword is the material, the way it is worked and the way all the elelments come together. This can be achieved in a miriad of ways. However the resultant product will and cannot appeal to all and no matter how deep one studies the subject and how much one understands the workmanship and skill employed in the process one wont necessarily like the end result. Thankfully we are all different and such variation in taste, preference and choice is what has created the range of styles we see today.

BTW if offered a Soshu blade of the quality illustrated I am sure I would not let my prinicipals stand in the way of me accepting it

regards

Paul