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new nihonto


werner

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Hi Folks,

 

Please give me your opinion on this one....got it quite cheap and could only take the tsuka off after the deal was done....close to tears after I discovered the nakago....

 

Sori: 17mm

Nakago: 190mm

Kissaki: 30mm

Cutting edge: 710mm

thickness at habaki: 7mm

thickness at yokoto: 4.5mm

width at habaki: 29mm

width at yokote: 20mm

total length of blade: 900mm

 

It comes with a double habaki and doesn't look polished down - habaki sits perfectly. No flaws such as hagire etc only 1 invisible nail catcher..

 

May I use this opportunity to ask the following: I came across swords with 8/9/10mm thickness at the habaki....does this mean that 7mm or 6mm thick blades have been polished down or have swords been made 5/6/7mm thick?

 

As you can see in the pics...some no-brainer took almost 35% of the patina away to fit it into cheap cheap cheap koshirae...

 

Thanks for your opinion and feedback..

 

Jock

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The use of acid by togishi was briefly discussed a few months back with an example of a nihonto where ji-hada was brought up by acid, and then after a professional polish. The pics of the blade worked over by acid, showed obvious unnatural looking ji with excessive but bland ji-hada showing... something I did not notice on this blade. :dunno:

 

I could not find the thread for the life of me, but I also remember a quote that "many professional togishi use mild acids during the polishing process, however when it is done by a highly-skilled professional, you would never suspect that any form of acid has been used."

 

To my knowledge, a few processes in the traditional final polishing stages are partially chemical, such as jizhuya and nugui, but I was hoping someone could elaborate on this. :?:

 

 

James

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Jamie,

 

When I mentioned that are few of the final traditional polishing processes are chemical, I did not mean that chemicals were added, although nugui does in part consist of iron oxide.

 

I cannot remember where I exactly I read it, but the whitening of the hamon during the hadori stage is not only due to very very fine 'polishing/scratching' by the hazuya stone, but also due to a chemical reaction which occurs when the uchigomori particles rub against each other and the steel.... I am not a togishi, and cannot say any of these things for certain, which is why I was hoping some of the more knowledgeable members may clear up the mist. :)

 

Also with nugui, I am quite sure the darkening/blueish hue achieved is also achieved by a chemical reaction between iron oxide (+ the other ingredients) and the steel. Again perhaps a togishi might clarify exactly what happens here.

 

 

James

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Hi,

 

I usually wouldn't buy without seeing the tsuka removed, but giving benefit to the seller it wasn't possible without damaging the handle wrapping....well the handle wrapping as well as the rest of the koshirae was done by the same guy that filed the nakago...not worth keeping and I didn't hesitate to remove the wrapping...I certainly don't think that the blade is tired at approx 7.2mm thickness...still looking into the acid thing...

 

I read somewhere, and I'm not saying it in relation to this blade, that some chemical contents of the stones used for polishing cause a certain chemical reaction with the blade surface as well as the small percentage of the human sweat ... well I leave this to the ones who have mastered the knowledge to go into this....

 

I think that is is really sad that one doesn't have an opportunity to consult people with knowledge at shows here in Aussie as these are quite rare....got a lot better chances to find communities who desperately wait for being picked up by aliens....or others who are in a 1960's time wrap...

 

Jock

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I'll agree that the nakago has been messed up pretty badly but it is possible to "fix" it somewhat, some reshaping and patination will help it, a mishaped nakago does not write a blade off but of course it has an effect on the value and possible attribution.

 

The jigane looks like it has been worked over my a process that I won't elaborate on because I abhor it, not acid but used to bring out the jigane - but I could be wrong. In any event it can still be polished, best not to write something off over internet pictures, have a polisher look at it and see what he can do.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

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Hi Folks,

 

As you can see in the pics...some no-brainer took almost 35% of the patina away to fit it into cheap cheap cheap koshirae...

 

Thanks for your opinion and feedback..

 

Jock,

 

I am really sorry for you, believe me, I am. But, what on earth have you expected from a purchase of a sword in cheap koshirae, out of polish and with a tsuka that could not be removed?

 

I know it didn't cost a lot of money, but still...

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Believe me....most of those novice-sounding sellers on eBay who pretend to know nothing and are too "scared" or unable to remove a tsuka etc..know exactly what they have and know more than they claim to know.

Not saying it is the case here, but you can sometimes easily see the seller knows more than they claim ;)

 

Btw Louis..are you referring to the chemical etchant that we see even more than acid nowdays? Bad stuff...

 

Brian

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The most common etchant other than acids is ferric chloride. However it is basically acidic (pun intended, :badgrin: ) when used in solution. Toxic and horrible stuff for swords. Those interested in Japanese raku pottery might be interested to know that it is a colourant in the firing. Dark orange, umber colours. John

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Yes that's it, getting popular, too bad and not honest. And yes with nugui you could call it a chemical reaction but this is not the same as using "chemicals" on a swords, I think when most refer to using chemicals they are talking about acids and chemical etchants used to save time or used for trickery.

 

Louis

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Louis, if the treatment isn't a physical process (i.e., grinding, polishing, etc.), it's chemical. Ferric chloride itself is not acidic, but hydrolyzes with water to form a moderately-strong Lewis acid that is considered as a very strong iron etchant. So if ferric chloride is used on a blade, by definition it's an acid treatment, & not one that's particularly controllable, either. :steamed:

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Yes i know, my post was in response to brians not johns, and what i was trying to distinguish between nugui (what some are referring to as a chemical treatment) and any other non traditional method like acid/ferric chloride etc.

Just say no to acid.

 

Louis

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Ferric chloride itself is not acidic, but hydrolyzes with water to form a moderately-strong Lewis acid that is considered as a very strong iron etchant. So if ferric chloride is used on a blade, by definition it's an acid treatment, & not one that's particularly controllable, either. :steamed:.

 

It hurts to think that the pieces of history we spend so much time, effort and often money to preserve, could one day come across (if they haven't already) someone who would abuse them in such a way. :(

 

 

and what i was trying to distinguish between nugui (what some are referring to as a chemical treatment) and any other non traditional method like acid/ferric chloride etc.

Louis, if I may, I was hoping you could elaborate on the process of nugui and exactly what is supposed to happen, in a strictly TRADITIONAL method of this process. I have never quite understood how the non-abrasive [please correct me if I am wrong] rubbing iron oxide enhances the ji-hada.

 

 

Thanks in advance,

James

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This topic and the original post have yielded some interesting discussion on the polishing process which is always fascinating. I am left however, without wishing to seem unkind, wondering what possessed the original poster to purchase this blade in the first place? he is now stuck with a sword that is worth virtually nothing by virtue of a very messed with nakago. I am sympathetic to the desire to own nihonto of course, but when the tsuka is jammed on and cant be removed without damaging it, and you are unable to examine the nakago, then little warning bells should go off in your head and regardless of how cheap the sword may be, you should walk away and take your money with you. (Cheap really isnt a good variety of anything, but much moreso in nihonto).

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This topic and the original post have yielded some interesting discussion on the polishing process which is always fascinating. I am left however, without wishing to seem unkind, wondering what possessed the original poster to purchase this blade in the first place? he is now stuck with a sword that is worth virtually nothing by virtue of a very messed with nakago. I am sympathetic to the desire to own nihonto of course, but when the tsuka is jammed on and cant be removed without damaging it, and you are unable to examine the nakago, then little warning bells should go off in your head and regardless of how cheap the sword may be, you should walk away and take your money with you. (Cheap really isnt a good variety of anything, but much moreso in nihonto).

 

 

To grant you a little insight in my humble mind - may I point out to you that a stamp-collector might classify any nihonto collector as an idiot as he can't see any value in doing so - same the other way.... For you (if your mind is focused on a perfect nakago and traditional polishing / koshirae) this blade might be (quote:) "worth virtually nothing by virtue of a very messed with nakago" -yet you will be unable to argue that the stupidly filed nakago does not mean this sword can't fulfill its original purpose = cut off enemies heads - surely beauty is best when perfect - yet may I offer you:

 

I'd gladly buy any koto/shinto/koa isshin blade of you that has a "messed with nakago" as long as my taste indicates that the price that is asked is in line what the object's value is for me (as an individual).

 

And may I use this opportunity to argue that some pockets aren't big enough to spent $10,000 on a blade....more like $1-200 and yet one might want to use the humble means to enjoy whatever one can afford without the arrogant judgement of some of the people here who don't know what "limited money" means...In short: I spent 20 years in charity work - whilst some of my friends made millions....well I might be an idiot with an IQ of 138 but these are the reasons why I didn't buy a minty sword from one of the guys on this forum...

 

Humbly hope that this answers your question in more than 1 way!

 

Jock

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