DaveM4P99 Posted November 17, 2010 Report Share Posted November 17, 2010 Hello everyone. I have this sword which means a great deal to me, but it is pretty badly rusted and shallowly pitted in some areas. Here is the "mei" This is the translation I received on this site: There is a strong resemblance to 3rd generation Tegarayama Ujishige. According to Fujishiro he worked ~1780 in Harima. The whole mei would likely be 'Banshu Tegarayama Fujiwara Ujishige'. We can see the 'Gara','Yama', 'Fuji', and 'Wara' pretty clearly. I can see the beginnings of 'Uji' under 'Wara'. As well, you can slightly see the 'Te' above the 'Gara', particularly in the last photo although its pretty rust-covered. 'Shige' is most definitely there, just rust-covered. I'm assuming 'Ban' and 'Shu' are above the 'Te', though that area is heavily rust-covered and I can see no traces. My resource was Fujishiro, Shinto Hen, pg. 203. The mei in Fujishiro looked spot on for these characters. The yasurime and nakagojiri also match. The 1st and 2nd generation do not look as close from the examples I found. 4th generation Ujishige became Masashige, noted ShinShinTo smith. He signed Ujishige for awhile but his style is different, at least in his Masashige mei. I could not find a 4th generation Ujishige mei by him. Nakagojiri also differ 3rd to 4th generation. My money is on 3rd generation Ujishige. Here are a couple wide shots of the blade: Anyway, I sent these photos to my soon to be polisher (12 months more to wait), and he says it may be tricky to remove all of the rust and pitting, but he's still willing to give it a try...What do you all think? Will a full restoration and polish for $78 an inch be worth it? Will it do this blade justice and really improve it? Or will I be disappointed? Thanks! -Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason_mazzy Posted November 17, 2010 Report Share Posted November 17, 2010 is this a seki smith wartime blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted November 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2010 is this a seki smith wartime blade? According to the translations I got on this site, it was made around 1780 by Tegarayama Ujishige. It was an older family blade, brought to war by a Japanese officer in WWII. That is why the Nambu Type 14 pistol is in the photo...the sword and pistol were both captured from an officer on board the Tachibana Maru - a ship carrying weapons and soldiers, but was posing as a medical ship. So I believe it is an older, traditionally made sword, not a mass produced wartime blade. Here is the full story: My grandfather, who was in the air force, was best friends with one of the chief surgeons in the Pacific theater during WWII, Lt. Col. Eugene F. Melaville, who gave him this sword and pistol after the war. He always said it was captured from a Japanese ship, but we never knew the whole story until I did some research and found a collection of war diaries at the US Army Department of Medical History website. To paraphrase the war diary story below: Around August 6th 1945, a Japanese hospital ship called the Tachibana Maru was captured by two US destroyers. Shortly after, a US boarding party discovered that the ship was carrying 1,600 Japanese soldiers and tons of weapons and ordinance. The ship was part of a last ditch effort to repel Allied forces. The diary describes the capture of the ship, and probably how Lt.Col. Mellaville captured the sword and pistol (bolded) http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs ... pter13.htm ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Morotai Island, Indonesia, Tuesday, 7 August A Japanese hospital ship was captured in the Banda Sea and brought into Morotai Island, Indonesia. With Col. Hollis Batchelder of the U.S.S. Mercy to assist, I was dispatched to Morotai by special plane, arriving at Morotai at 1600 hours. We reported to Maj. Gen. Harry H. Johnson, Commanding General, 93d Infantry Division. He is National Guard from Houston, Tex., and a forceful pleasant Texan who gave us real southern hospitality, and as good a steak dinner with hot biscuits as I have ever had. Colonel Jackson is his chief of staff. Wednesday, 8 August Went with the division surgeon, Colonel Melaville [Lt. Col. Eugene F. Melaville, MC], to see the port director, Commander Harrison, who gave us permission to board the Japanese hospital ship, Tachi Bana Maru. This ship had been intercepted in the Banda Sea on 3 August. A destroyer flotilla had gone out for this purpose. Verne Lippard [Lt. Col. (later Col.) Vernon W. Lippard, MC] just came up to tell me the radio announced that the Japanese have accepted the Potsdam ultimatum. 38Medical Department, United States Army. Cold Injury, Ground Type. Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1958, appendix H, p. 533.886 After boarding the Japanese hospital ship with a walkie-talkie [radio], they [the boarding party] found contraband and summoned an armed boarding party to take charge. There were so many Japanese (1,600) on board that they did not dare go below to search. The exterior of the ship was marked according to the rules of the Geneva Convention. The patients were sleeping on mats spread on top of the cargo, which was mostly contraband and consisted of boxes and bales that were packed with rifles, machineguns, mortars, grenades, and ammunition. Boxes were marked with large red crosses. There were no seriously ill patients aboard, and all personnel walked off the ship. About a dozen were examined on the dock and sent to the 155th Station Hospital with diagnoses of beri beri, malaria, and fever of unknown origin. There were no wounded, and there was only one surgical patient with an infected leg ulcer. The patients, about 1,500, were said to be the slightly ill. On the whole, they appeared healthy and well nourished. We visited a compound where 97 officers were interned. They were polite, said they were satisfied with their care, and that no one was sick. A visit to another compound of enlisted men showed several sick men. The chief surgeon of the ship said that he did not know that the boxes and bales contained contraband. No records were available to prove whether these had been bona fide patients before embarkation, and the confusion on shipboard was such that records could not be located. Looting by sailors undoubtedly caused part of the confusion. The ship was in a wretched sanitary condition. The stench was terrific. Clearly, this is a violation of the Geneva Convention. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- So I assume after boarding to inspect the Tachibana Maru’s crew, Lt. Col. Malaville “confiscated” the sword and pistol from a Japanese officer. I can only imagine him touring the ship amongst all the confusion and looting sailors, and claiming this prize for himself. -Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted November 17, 2010 Report Share Posted November 17, 2010 Hi Dave, The answer to your question depends on 2 things: the condition of the blade and the skill of the polisher. Nothing much you can do about the condition of the blade but the skill of the polisher is entirely up to you. If you are concerned that the best possible result be achieved and that you aren't giving money to someone who will kill the sword, make sure that someone is properly trained. There are real miracles that can be done by a polisher who knows the craft, and real disasters performed by well meaning amateurs (even some with long waiting lists). Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdiddy Posted November 17, 2010 Report Share Posted November 17, 2010 I sent these photos to my soon to be polisher (12 months more to wait), and he says it may be tricky to remove all of the rust and pitting, but he's still willing to give it a try...What do you all think? I would recommend mailing the sword to him, letting him inspect it in hand, and then let him tell you what he thinks. That's the best way he, or anybody for that matter, can give you a qualified opinion on whether it can be restored. If the polisher is stateside (assuming so because of the cost per inch quote) then you could probably get it to him and then back to you if it does not work out for ~$40 which is paltry in comparison to the total cost of restoration. Will a full restoration and polish for $78 an inch be worth it? From a purely monetary perspective, probably not. Total cost of polish ~$1600. Add a shirasaya, $400. New copper habaki, $400. You are looking at $2k or so total. Look at auction results at Christies and Bonhams recently for some guide on what nice wakizashi's in polish bring. From these costs, I would imagine you will end up under water on the sword, however, since you did not buy it and it was given to you then I think you would only be slightly under water. Also, if it is meaningful then that might make up for any difference. Will it do this blade justice and really improve it? Or will I be disappointed? If you choose a qualified togishi then yes, it will improve it and you won't be disappointed. But choose wisely and not cheaply. You get what you pay for. Hope that helps some. Matt Edit - just saw Grey's post and agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loui Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 The tachibana maru story is quite interesting, I had a sword that was taken off the same ship by the one of the members of the first boarding party to step foot on it. The sword itself was nothing to speak of but the history behind the sword and all the documentation I had with it made it a pretty valuable piece. Have the polisher look at the sword in hand obviously before making any assumptions by photos, it may very well take a polish, in the end you have two pieces of history there, the sword, and the taking of the tachibana maru - very nice and definitely worth serious consideration for restoration. Oh, make sure your polisher is using traditional methods from start to finish, some amateurs are using some type of hybrid polish that is doing a disservice to Nihonto, and in the end you would be wasting your money. Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason_mazzy Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Curious how under water he would really be taking into account 1: that it was a gift, and 2: it probably has historical and sentimental value. If a blade that he is going to keep could be restored so he would enjoy it more, wouldn't the cost be far less than the sentimental value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Oh I totally agree. The blade has a great deal of historical and sentimental value to me, and the fact that I know how it was captured during WWII makes it all the more interesting. I have no problem paying for a full polish if it is going to improve the sword at all, since it means a lot to me. It is, afterall, a true nihonto blade made by an accomplished swordsmith over 200 years ago...I feel like it deserves to be restored. I just hope the polisher can make it shine again...but I have no expectations since the blade is pitted in some areas. I assume pitting in the blade is difficult to remove and polish out? And yes, the polisher I am using comes highly recommended, and does it all by hand using traditional nihonto methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Hi all. I haven't posted in a while, but here are some close up pics of the blade. The "macro" close up setting of my camera, along with the flash, is probably making the damage look a lot worse than it is...but there is definitely some shallow, yet smooth, pitting on the blade. No cracks or fatal damage that I can tell though. The scratches seem to be magnified a lot as well, and I assume they are scratches caused by the inside of the Saya (sheath). I don't keep it in there anymore, don't worry. For now the blade is well oiled with mineral oil, awaiting its full polish in about 11 months. The polisher is David Hofhine. http://www.swordpolisher.com/ He was reccommended by a few very well respected members (and sword collectors) over at the gun/military forum ar15.com - And his work on facebook and his website look great. He says he uses all traditional Japanese methods, and has even re-polished blades that came back from Japan and weren't done well. So I trust him, but that is all I really have to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 The pitting is very deep but I have had swords in worse condition polish fine. It depends on how many polishes the blade has had, the construction of the sword, the polisher, and whether or not you were a good boy this past year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 So a good update - An email from David the polisher... I have the foundation on your sword just about done. I moved you ahead of the next guy (who had 2 large swords) so you could get it back quicker. It cleaned up very well considering how bad the rust was. It has a complete temper line and a strong full boshi. No apparent loose welds, blisters or cracks visible. It does have about half a dozen little black spots on the blade that were too deep to remove without taking off an excessive amount of steel or deforming the geometry. I believe all spots are less than 1mm in diameter and most are less than 0.5mm in diameter. So he is continuing to the full polish now! I will post pics as soon as it gets shipped back to me. Next step...finding someone to rebuild/repair the tsuka...Anyone know of someone in New York City??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Are you getting a new shirasaya made for the newly polished blade? This is important to keep the new polish from getting ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehk Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I would definitely go for shirasaya, would be such a shame if the blade would get damaged after the polish due to the old saya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Congrats on taking the steps to having it restored. Looking forward to the after-pics. Yes to shirasaya imho. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconj Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 On the subject of polish or not polish, I thought I would attach some photo's of a sword I had restored some time ago, the sword had been stored in an attic in Tokyo, with no saya, and was kept wrapped on a muslin cloth, which had became wet over time and had rusted the blade very deeply into the pattern of the cloth, I had it polished and was very happy with the result regards John ps: sword signed 'nagamitsu saku' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Thanks for the comments and interest everyone. I will post pics soon. I am definitely not be putting the blade back into the old WWII shirasaya...it is very dirty inside and has a lot of rust remnants. I don't know if I will get a shirasaya made just yet...mainly because I don't want it sent away again. I will do it eventually but is there a way I should keep it protected until then? I will definitely take very good care of it. And any ideas on a tsuka rebuilder? Maybe one in NYC? Will a tsuka be tough to make since the tang is so deformed from rust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Now the foundation is done you should get a shirasaya and new habaki made. Surprised your polisher is even willing to complete the polish without one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Well, he is very strict about packaging...I had to package it up very carefully and very securely for shipping...I followed his instructions and made a very sturdy and protected board mounting...so I am not worried. http://www.swordpolisher.com/Shipping.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Making a new tsuka on it's own is not the way it's normally done. A saya and tsuka should really be made at the same time. The tsuka shown in your pics is WAY beyond repair... And no the rusted nakago (tang) won't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Making a new tsuka on it's own is not the way it's normally done. A saya and tsuka should really be made at the same time. The tsuka shown in your pics is WAY beyond repair... And no the rusted nakago (tang) won't be a problem. OK great. Thanks for the info! It makes total sense that a shirasaya and a tsuka are constructed together. Any referrals as to who would do the job?? I don't think I want anything fancy...probably something similiar to WWII style...since that is how I best relate to the history of the blade. I know, it's not fancy, but I think it is what I want. And maybe they could re-use the handguard (tsuba) and butt-cap (Kashira?) ?? Someone mentioned I may need a new copper Habaki also?? What is wrong with the one that is currently on the blade? Will that not work with a new saya and tsuka? Sorry for my ignorance...trying to learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Seasons Greetings to All, Just a follow up to some of what has already been discussed. The correct procedure in the restoration process is foundation polish, followed by habaki, then, shirasaya, and finally, finish polish. It is normal for the polisher to take care of these secondary steps in the process and for good reason, as taking any of these steps out of order may lead to having repeat a step, costly. Not to mention the increased risk of scratching the new polish. Additional comment, when choosing a polisher, it cannot be emphasized enough to choose wisely. While the present owner may be content with an amateur polisher's work, if it happens that the piece needs to be sold at some point in time, it may become a very difficult sale if the polish is not up to standards. Keep in mind that while a new polish is increasing the price of a sword significantly, it is not necessarily increasing its value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Someone mentioned I may need a new copper Habaki also?? What is wrong with the one that is currently on the blade? Will that not work with a new saya and tsuka? A new polish removes metal which means the old habaki may no longer fit tightly, which is critical because; a) it's a cutting weapon b) a newly polished sword must fit correctly in the new shirasaya, and in the new tsuka. The thing about amateur polishers that hurts the most, is you also end up paying for what you don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Seasons Greetings to All, Just a follow up to some of what has already been discussed. The correct procedure in the restoration process is foundation polish, followed by habaki, then, shirasaya, and finally, finish polish. It is normal for the polisher to take care of these secondary steps in the process and for good reason, as taking any of these steps out of order may lead to having repeat a step, costly. Not to mention the increased risk of scratching the new polish. Additional comment, when choosing a polisher, it cannot be emphasized enough to choose wisely. While the present owner may be content with an amateur polisher's work, if it happens that the piece needs to be sold at some point in time, it may become a very difficult sale if the polish is not up to standards. Keep in mind that while a new polish is increasing the price of a sword significantly, it is not necessarily increasing its value. Understood and thanks for the input! Although, I don't think Mr. Hofhine is an amateur at all, even if he didn't do an apprenticeship. He still uses 100% traditional methods...and his "before and after" photos speak for themself (according to some on this site, and on other sites). I completely understand why one would do a finish polish last, however, I would rather get it all done in one step...and just make sure the saya maker, and I, are extra careful with the finished polish. Any thoughts on who could make a saya and rebuild/remake the tsuka? Maybe someone close to New York City? And how much should it cost? Thanks! -Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 A new polish removes metal which means the old habaki may no longer fit tightly, which is critical because; a) it's a cutting weapon b) a newly polished sword must fit correctly in the new shirasaya, and in the new tsuka. The thing about amateur polishers that hurts the most, is you also end up paying for what you don't get OK excellent info. Thanks. How much is a complete rebuild of the tsuka going to cost? Again, nothing too fancy. And again...I don't think Mr. Hofhine is an amateur at all, even if he didn't do an apprenticeship. He still uses 100% traditional methods...and his "before and after" photos speak for themself (according to some on this site, and on other sites). I am still quite intimidated by this whole process...and nihonto in general... -Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 check with http://www.nihontoantiques.com/, there's also http://www.sayashi.com/ near Philly. P.S. "it's never easy" .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisR Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I'm curious now...even though I have nothing to send for polish, what would it cost per inch / CM (or what price range would be normal) to have a blade polished in Japan by a 'good', traditionally trained polisher? I've read enough to know that the shirasaya a habaki should be made for the newly polished blade as well...is this usually included in the polisher's payment, or billed as a separate part of the process? Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 For a quality polish by a reputable polisher in Japan, the standard rate has been about 10,000 yen per inch for quite a long time. Now, with the dollar falling over the last couple of years from 120 yen or so to now around 75 yen, a historic low, rates in dollars are more like $130-$140 per inch. Habaki and the shirasaya are not included in the rate above. A decent habaki and shirasaya will add roughly $1000 to the cost. There are also registration, shipping and insurance, and agent fees to include. It gets very expensive.... But there is nothing as expensive as a cheap, amateur US polish.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 For a quality polish by a reputable polisher in Japan, the standard rate has been about 10,000 yen per inch for quite a long time. Now, with the dollar falling over the last couple of years from 120 yen or so to now around 75 yen, a historic low, rates in dollars are more like $130-$140 per inch. Habaki and the shirasaya are not included in the rate above. A decent habaki and shirasaya will add roughly $1000 to the cost. There are also registration, shipping and insurance, and agent fees to include. It gets very expensive.... But there is nothing as expensive as a cheap, amateur US polish.... Well I hope that is not what I am paying for...but I think that is what you are inferring. :? Either way, I think I am doing a good job of taking care of this blade, and I have confidence that it will turn out great...or at least as good as it can be. Next step...a new saya and tsuka...I contacted Nihonto Antiques in Long Island (New York), and am waiting to hear back on pricing for the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Well I hope that is not what I am paying for I don't know if it is cheap but I do know that it is an amateur US polish. Mr. Hofine has no formal training. or at least as good as it can be Sorry; wrong again. As good as it can be would be a polish done properly by a properly trained polisher. I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone here but felt that Chris shouldn't have to be the only one to stick up for proper polish. It doesn't matter how many glowing testimonials are on the polisher's website (What else would you expect?). Amateurs shouldn't be messing with Nihonto. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM4P99 Posted December 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I guess it is semantics...If not being "formally" trained makes someone an amateur...then I guess he is an "amateur." But does that automatically make him incompetent? He sounds like he knows what he is talking about...and has been doing it for more than 20 years full time. http://www.swordpolisher.com/whychoosedave.html NO polish is always better than a BAD polish. Shiny does NOT necessarily equal better. Just because your blade comes back from an amateur polisher all shiny with the rust removed does not necessarily mean the blade has been improved or made more valuable. The geometry is the most important aspect of a polish and this is usually where the most damage is done by amateur polishers. A rusty sword with its original geometry, lines and metal intact is more valuable than a blade that has been crudely ground down to a shiny wavy stick. If you can not afford to have a blade properly restored, simply keep it clean and oiled and preserve it as is. You will be doing yourself, your sword, and posterity a great favor and saving some money in the process. Seems pretty honest to me...And more than 1 US collector has recommended him to me directly... Just because the French first made Champagne, doesn't mean they are the only ones that can do it...or even the best at it. And just because someone didn't do an apprenticeship in Japan doesn't mean they aren't a master of the craft. But listen, I am not defending my choice one way or the other...I am no expert...and I haven't gotten the blade back yet...But it seems to me that some people here are a little "elitist" in their thinking, and are maybe trying to defend/justify their overly expensive Japanese done polishes to themselves, when they could have gotten the same done in their own country...for less money...since they wouldn't have to pay all of the crazy Japanese fees. Or they could have gotten it done by an accomplished "amateur" instead of paying a premium for a name. Anyway, if someone here would like to see pictures of the finished job, I'd be happy to post them for "approval." If not, I thank everyone for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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