Are you a collector or accumulator?

[cabowen]

Hopefully a new topic can refocus our energies in a positive direction....

 

I ask the question, "are you a collector or accumulator?" to gain insight into how we view ourselves and our hobby. As some will certainly ask, what is the definition of collector? What is an accumulator? I have my opinions. Would be interested in learning what others think. Please keep the discussion civil and play nice so Brian can devote his time to more important matters....

[paulb]

Hi Chris,

In my time I have been both. When I started anything that had a hint of being Japanese sword related would be the cause of lust and expenditure. I convinced myself that every blade I bought in military mounts was a beautiful hand-made blade waiting to be discovered by someone with real insight (i.e. me). Eventualy I started reading more, taking note of what I was being told, thanks to such people as Ian Bottomley and Deryk Ingham of the Northern Token Soceity and started to look for something more.

Eventually I ended up with a number of swords but found I only regularly looked at 4 or 5 of them. I then opted to follow the almost universal Collectors advise to collect fewer better pieces rather than many mediocre. I spent the past few years reducing my collection and hopefully improving its quality.

As a result of the above I dont think I am a collector any longer. My collecting lust for swords has been satisfied. I treasure the blades I have and will continue to do so but have no burning desire (nor the cash) to add to them significantly. One should never say never but for the moment I much enjoy going back to a purer student status and getting in to deeper understanding than I do trying to buy things I either cant afford or match quality levels of what I already have (quality statement is based purely on personal taste. what I have is exactly what I want to see in a Japanese blade)

So I would say I am now neither but certainly closer to collector than accumulator.

regards

paul

[cabowen]

Maybe we all start as accumulators....some also as students....what constitutes a collector and what changes one from an accumulator to a collector????

[huntershooter]

Faced with two choices, I would confess to being an "accumulator".

I am new enough to Nihonto (3 years) my usual M.O. is to purchase what I like, without regard to era and sometimes smith.

My enjoyment at this stage is acquiring a blade which I can find as much information as possible about the maker.

I've found Gendaito fulfilling as there is a great deal written on the subject and a few on this forum with a lot of knowledge which has been shared quite selflessly.

[paulb]

Maybe we all start as accumulators....some also as students....what constitutes a collector and what changes one from an accumulator to a collector????

 

Firstly focus, identifyng those aspects of a subject that appeal and then pursuing them

secondly knowledge; it enables the collector to be selective and buy only those things which add to their collection.

 

Todd

regarding collecting what you like, there is nothing at all wrong with this as long as you don't do what I used to which is use it as an excuse not to study. I remember saying exactly that to my teacher of years gone by, Deryk Ingham, His response was immediate "thats fine but study more and then you will understand why you like what you do" I did as I was told and never forgot the comment.

regards

Paul

[cabowen]

Maybe we all start as accumulators....some also as students....what constitutes a collector and what changes one from an accumulator to a collector????

 

Firstly focus, identifyng those aspects of a subject that appeal and then pursuing them

secondly knowledge; it enables the collector to be selective and buy only those things which add to their collection.

 

Might is be said that a collector collects knowledge as well as items, while an accumulator simply adds to the pile?

 

Todd

regarding collecting what you like, there is nothing at all wrong with this as long as you don't do what I used to which is use it as an excuse not to study. I remember saying exactly that to my teacher of years gone by, Deryk Ingham, His response was immediate "thats fine but study more and then you will understand why you like what you do" I did as I was told and never forgot the comment.

regards

Paul

 

It is interesting how some are satisfied and stop with simple physical possession while others want the addition of the cerebral; the pursuit of knowledge of the possession can become more important that the pursuit of the objects themselves....

 

There are many benefits to specializing and focusing one's efforts. I was once given that advice and took it to heart. I still think it is excellent advice. We can get into the reasons why later....I would like to hear more from others first....

[sanjuro]

I also confess to an initial period of accumulation rather than collecting. I think we all to a greater or lesser degree have experienced this and gone through at least a short initial period of 'promiscuous acquisition', which is really accumulation, only to later sell off the fruits of that initial madness in order to finance a refinement of our collections.

In my own case I was fortunate to have received at an early stage some good advice which Paul B so adequately sums up in his statement:

"Firstly focus, identifying those aspects of a subject that appeal and then pursuing them

secondly knowledge; it enables the collector to be selective and buy only those things which add to their collection."

Hence my initial period of 'promiscuous acquisition' was relatively short. Shallow pockets drove me to books rather than buying swords, and I eventually began to buy sensibly and with some knowledge of what I was buying.

So I guess at the end of the day, I am an evolved accumulator ...now collector.

[cabowen]

I also confess to an initial period of accumulation rather than collecting. I think we all to a greater or lesser degree have experienced this and gone through at least a short initial period of 'promiscuous acquisition', which is really accumulation, only to later sell off the fruits of that initial madness in order to finance a refinement of our collections.

In my own case I was fortunate to have received at an early stage some good advice which Paul B so adequately sums up in his statement:

"Firstly focus, identifying those aspects of a subject that appeal and then pursuing them

secondly knowledge; it enables the collector to be selective and buy only those things which add to their collection."

Hence my initial period of 'promiscuous acquisition' was relatively short. Shallow pockets drove me to books rather than buying swords, and I eventually began to buy sensibly and with some knowledge of what I was buying.

So I guess at the end of the day, I am an evolved accumulator ...now collector.

 

Yes, as a friend once put it in a cruder fashion, "sword slut"....

 

I think accumulators serve a very important function: they provide resources for scholars who help advance the field....

 

When I started as a youngster of 13, there were few books and little money. I too was forced to seek knowledge to make the most of my limited resources at the time....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

It seems a factor in the style of newer collectors..... Those who are perhaps younger and have easier access to funds than than we or at least certainly myself ever had, that it is easier for them to buy and in those initial stages become accumulators, a condition that sometimes persists in an atmosphere of a lack of appropriate study. What I am driving at here is the instant gratification that characterises our modern society in which older collectors did not have the opportunity to indulge, is currently creating a sort of sub culture of accumulators rather than budding collectors. I may be wrong here but I seem to see much evidence of this.

 

I hasten to add here that this is not meant as an indictment of younger collectors. Indeed the observation holds true of newer but older collectors also. The advent of the internet for instance makes possible now 'collection in isolation' with no direct contact among collectors other than by email or forums such as this, where once networking between collectors and sword clubs was not only more localised but also conducted at greater pains over distance and with less immediacy than is now electronically commonplace.

[Brian]

Chris,

I have taken the liberty of editing to add a poll to this question. I know my own thoughts, but am laso, like you, interested to see what others think.

Bacause it woul dhave been easy to add an option of "both" I have deliberately left that out, so that people have to decide one or the other based on their interpretation of the 2 categories.

This is a subject very relevant here in SA, as with our new firearm laws, us collectors have had to prove specific themes and categories and knowledge in order to retain our collector licences for firearms, so this subject has been debated frequently.

 

Brian

[IanB]

All, Like others, I definitely accumulated until I eventually sold off the bottom end of my proto-collection, 30 swords and a naginata, for £30 and even made a modest profit. I always yearned for an armour in its box and eventually acquired it. Of all the items I own, that armour is the one I could not bear to part with, despite having lived with it for well over 40 years. And yes, I can still get a buzz if I acquire a bit of nonsense that pleases me. What nobody has yet said, and I think it should be, is that there is nothing wrong with being an accumulator, especially when you are a beginner. Yes, every beginner should definitely read the basic books and get a feeling for the terminology before dashing off to acquire a sword. It is moving forward from that level when many beginners, particularly those who are isolated, find difficult. What exactly is an 'extended kissaki'? What exactly does an author mean by the term 'large itame'? So much of what is written about swords is the subjective opinion of the authors and cannot be quantified in a way that eliminates uncertainty for a novice. To many beginners it can be a confusing minefield. It is only after you have handled a lot of swords and seen a lot of kissaki or itame hada that these statements begin to make some sort of sense. Every sword you pick up, handle and look at closely will add to your knowledge in a way that reading books and looking at pictures never can. And if you have bought a sword, one thing is for certain, you do look at it closely. Even junk swords will teach you something, if only the obvious fact - its junk.

Ian Bottomley

[nagamaki - Franco]

Was once an accumulator pretending to be a collector, and have since become a collector trying not to be an accumulator.

[David Flynn]

I also started as an accumulator. Went through a period where I would collect fittings, Tsuka and swords, with equal abandon. Next came a period of stagnation, this happened, mostly for personal reasons. From this period came a bugger it all period where I was going to give it all up. Then came the next period(still there) where I decided to specialise more. So now, I would class myself as a collector.

[drbvac]

Former Accumulator of edged weapons and in that case - ANY edged weapons - so you have 30 different German Dress daggers, 139 different bayonets - any country - any age - 140 military swords - mostly British and German - all forces - tulwars, even a dozen african knives . Then I got my Mino Kanemitsu tachi - mid muromachi period - All the rest - well I kept some favourites but they are gone.

 

Now I have a half dozen nihonto and am still learning - after having spent 20 years learning the differnce between a George 4th army sword and a german firemans dagger. Nihonto is by far the most complex subject when it comes to one countries edged weapons but there are lots of things one has to be aware of in any collecting be it swords or handguns.

 

At the same time being a nut with sports cars and harley davidsons there is just so much room in ones head, life and pocketbook to either collect or accumulate - its all fun but really hard to be an expert at any one. If you want to know the horsepower of a BMW M Coupe or a 1965 HArley I can probably tell ya, know what I like as well but would be hard pressed to kantei anything- well maybe school -

[Surfson]

Interesting question to pose, and it's eliciting a lot of introspection and confessions!

 

As to me, I brought a sword back from a trip to Japan 25 years ago and became hooked. I entered an intense phase of study and put together a sizable library of books on Nihonto. I shortly thereafter entered a phase of "buy and sell" in which I ran ads, ran around like a nut buying swords and sold swords to Japanese dealers and collectors for several years. I had to continue to study then so as not to "buy high and sell low", so the books became even more important. The only sad part about that phase is that I had to sell all the very best swords that I got since I couldn't afford to keep them, so my actual collection consisted of mostly the lower end pieces.

 

The last 10+ years, I have not sold many swords and have primarily been a collector, but I have to confess to being an accumulator as well. I have bought a lot of gunto with hand made, usually koto, blades in them and have just tucked them away. I can sometimes kantei them and sometimes not. I am a scientist in my professional life and am in the business of creating new knowledge. I became a bit frustrated with studying about nihonto constantly because I felt that I was only learning what is already known and not generating any new information.

 

Presently I enjoy reading books on kantei and the NMB and am still picking up swords, mostly on ebay.

[Jean]

I have been a small accumulator, no more than ten items at most then I have decided to reduce my collection to Gokaden, then I have resold eveything to go for high level swords, I have currently 2 daitos, 2 tantos and 3 kogatana. I am a real collector on Kogatana, because I concentrate on one type of kogatana, issued from the same province and which were all made in the same period

[Lindus]

Ctagorise...difficult, seems to me it is a combination of...

 

{a} Treasure Hunter

{b} Militaria freak

{c} Japanese art follower

{d} competitor with other collectors

{e} Interest in Japanese history

{f} A gift turns into a life time study & appreciation (Me)

{h} Martial art off shoot

{i} Decorator section

 

Suppose that you could go on but for me it is a collective of annoying,social,instructive & at the end of accumaltion, financially rewarding.....but ya do have to be lucky and wait decades

 

Roy

[cabowen]

Ctagorise...difficult, seems to me it is a combination of...

 

{a} Treasure Hunter

{b} Militaria freak

{c} Japanese art follower

{d} competitor with other collectors

{e} Interest in Japanese history

{f} A gift turns into a life time study & appreciation (Me)

{h} Martial art off shoot

{i} Decorator section

 

Suppose that you could go on but for me it is a collective of annoying,social,instructive & at the end of accumaltion, financially rewarding.....but ya do have to be lucky and wait decades

 

Roy

 

As earlier mentioned, part of the definition of a collector is focus.....perhaps safe to say you are an accumulator!

 

As also mentioned previously, nothing wrong with accumulating. Sometimes a shotgun is the right tool for the job. You mention, "financially rewarding", that can be an aim in and of itself and there is no doubt that amassing large quantities can prove to be financially profitable....

 

There is of course another category I could have included- dealer....

[george trotter]

I would catorgarise myself as a collector, for the following reasons.

 

I do not have a desire to just "acquire another sword".

 

If I saw a number of nihonto on a table, I would look through them carefully to see if any interested my taste...usually not.

 

I deeply research the items I do acquire...just "having" it is not enough, I have to know all I can about it, its owner (if poss) and its maker.

 

Whether it is one, or three, or five, my interest and affection for those that I have acquired does not grow less with time...I am always amazed and delighted EACH time I get a sword out to clean and view.

 

I do not need others to like what I like.

 

I began in 1971 by buying "a Japanese sword"...(it was a Seki gunto)...I started to wonder if I could find a "better sword". After about 3 or 4 purchases (all of the same gunto type), I came across a gunto mounted "Kanabo Hayato no Jo Masazane" of c.1530...the difference in quality, form, amazingness, was an intsant realization that there were swords and SWORDS!!! That was the start of a careful, rational search (now aided by early books and learning Japanese) that by 1985 included 1xkoto jo saku, 1xkoto chu saku, 1xshinto jo saku, 2xshinto chu jo saku plus shinshinto and gendaito (no Seki or Sho stamp gunto), all of hamon, form etc that appealed to me.

At this 1985 time I sold my collection due to professional reasons, and also, I began to fret that I was responsible for preserving these interesting swords...I did not want that "un-reversable responsibilitry", should any be damaged by rust, chip etc.

I started collecting and researching again a few years ago (only gendaito of WWII)... under exactly the same personal interest/ research appeal basis as before...therefore, I consider myself a collector .

Regards,

Geo.

[cabowen]

A little more about my collecting history to show how focus can develop....

 

As I mentioned earlier, I bought my first sword at 13. It was a gunto, machine made. Working at a newspaper, I had the benefit of placing free classified ads. I took advantage of this and ran regular ads offering to buy Japanese swords. Most of my gold turned to steel. I bought anything offered that I could afford. Luckily, my lack of knowledge did not end in any big mistakes as nothing that came my way was anything very good. I sold all but one sword to help fund college. While a grad student I started attending sword shows and fell in love with a gendaito displayed, made by the Minatogawa Jinja smith Masataka. It was in fresh Jimmy Hayashi polish. It was gendaito after that....

 

At first it was any nice gendaito. Then it became famous gendai tosho. Then Tokyo gendai tosho. Once I had settled on Tokyo gendai tosho, I would buy any that were in good condition, simply to have an example. The final development was to focus only on the best examples of each tosho, not just buying a blade by a smith because it was by the smith. I learned that there were both many blades out there by any given smith and that within every smith's body of work, there is variation in quality. Of course, it takes a lot more patience, as well as optimism, that a better blade will come along....Now I have nearly everything I set out to obtain, which, fortunately, with home building and child rearing now demanding financial commitment, the long time between sword finds has actually been a good thing!

 

Hopefully my own history illustrates another important point that differentiates collecting and accumulating. With purpose comes conclusion. A collector focuses on a particular subset and when that subset has been achieved, the collection is complete. An accumulator has no finish line...

[Lindus]

LOL...as in the theme of things the collecting life of most is around 20 years, as I suppose unless most collectors who are financialy stable {Not today I thinK} I suspect are involved in any hobby could at some point be considered "Dealers", this is not a denegrating term as some of the really good bloke in Nihonto have been dealers/Collectors. Coming from a period when information was really not available so you aquired and later began to appreciate if the item was good,bad or indifferent....life was much more fun than the situation today when it seems if it has no papers perhaps it should be avoided.

I remember a chap who at the first Token Taikai was distraught when the shinsa team stated that the mei on his sword was Gimei and an attribution to another smith was given, the "Other smith was far better"...It is fun, to many people take it far too seriously unless their living depends on it,enjoy.

The definition of collector is a person who collects,an accumulator is pretty much the same, why infer that one is lesser?.

Roy

[cabowen]

Truly "ignorance is bliss"! Whoops, there I go again with that word! Let's rephrase: "Inexperience is bliss"! There was undoubtedly more pure fun out there when everything was fresh and we were innocent...

[Lindus]

Now be carefull old chap, arrogance can also be a problem in Nihonto as it is in many clubs,do you not a living from the "Hobby"? :D

Roy

[cabowen]

 

Now be carefull old chap, arrogance can also be a problem in Nihonto as it is in many clubs,do you not a living from the "Hobby"? :D

Roy

 

Make a living from the hobby? No, not even close.....I do have a web site with some swords for sale. It hasn't been updated in about 3 years!

 

And I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, simply agreeing with you that there was a lot of fun back before papers and things took the innocence away....

[Lindus]

So we are agreed, you expertise is world wide recognised and info input rewards us all. Have a look at my (?) Gassan mei, would appreciate your thoughts.

Regards

 

Roy

Edited by Admin - the next 2 posts were moved to the Gassan thread to keep this one on topic.

[Mark Green]

It looks like we have a pattern going on here.

 

I had to wait to start my Japanese collecting, until later in life due to family reasons. I have loved Japanese weapons of all kinds for many years.

I picked up a sword in the early days of ebay. Got very lucky. Started buying books to have more of a clue.

Picked up a few more swords from ebay, and other places, now that I knew what I was looking at.

May have been a bit possessed about buying swords for a short while. But usually moved on the swords I didn't want.

Decided I liked Bungo swords, for many reasons. Now I have 5 swords, and one Naginata from the same school. Three swords from the same family of smiths! A few other nice swords (koto), and a pile of very pretty Yari. (because I love yari)

 

So, I guess like many others here, I started as a accumulator , and have been moving towards being a collector.

Like so many have said, It is easy to know what you like, but it takes looking at many thousands of swords to know what (good) is. Most of us regular folk cannot afford the (good) swords. We just have to admire them from pics, and museums, and sword shows. And love all the (other) Japanese swords that need help staying alive for future generations of sword lovers.

 

Mark G

[Kurogasa55]

Was once an accumulator pretending to be a collector, and have since become a collector trying not to be an accumulator.

 

 

Very well said. I can honestly say that i think i am both. I started off as a pure accumulator trying to get my hands on any kind of Japanese swords(7 year collector so far) but as time went on i became more cautious in what i was buying. I currently have a few swords that i am proud of and a few mistakes i made early on but i am happy in everything i did because it was a good way for me to learn about collecting. I would not classify myself as one or the other though. i just love Nihonto

[Rich T]

I'd like to think of myself as a student, not a collector. The only reason for collecting is to help study. There were several tables of accumulations for sale at the SF Taikai I must say.

 

Rich

[nagamaki - Franco]

It is said that "one good sword makes a collection" , which speaks well for that type of disciplined collector . However, there is also said to be an even higher level of existence , which is not the student collector accumulating like some might have you believe , but rather one which requires completely letting go , yes, being mu-to , where the student is simply content with studying what everyone else accumulates and collects , a club which sooner or later everyone joins whether they wish to become a member or not, except those entombed with their swords of course ....

[David Flynn]

How Zen of you Franco.