why is Ebay so bad ?

[codee 1]

Hi Guys,I do not understand why Ebay is all bad,as many of the Sellers are also advertised on this board,and manny blades that came up for Discussion and some got very good responses.Of course if you look for items sold for only a few Dollars you look at Fakes and Rubbish, trow Peanuts get Monkeys.Or-are you all telling us ,that the Sellers such us kanetoyo,australia nihonto.jumi,nobuyoshi and many many others,are no good!?I have items seen advertised ,at higher Prices at this board then what the actually sold for at ebay.How is that possible?I also believe that many of you have purchased from Ebay,I actually have,and thanks Mike i was very happy whit my purchase.Not like some board member that contacted me out of the blue and offered me some strange DEAL all in his favour. Alf Sorry if I offended some of you-but Ithink we have double Standards!!

[cabowen]

The main reason people are down on ebay is because the bulk of what is available there is trash. Much of it is misrepresented, either out of ignorance or pure fraud. There is little or no recourse available if you get screwed. If you really know what you are doing, you can sometimes get a great deal, but most do not really know what they are doing and thus most knowledgeable people on this board will advise staying away from ebay. It is like swimming in waters confirmed to have sharks. You might get lucky now and then, but sooner or later you will get bitten....

[drbvac]

True enough Chris but the same can be said for classified ads in papers, Kijiji, even some auctions on-line or not. As with any collectable be it Nihonto or coins or stamps - whatever - buyer beware -

[cabowen]

No argument there....I think ebay gets the most attention simply because it is the largest and most international and tends to attract the less desirable elements on a large scale....

[watsonmil]

Dear Alf S,

Specifically, ... eBay is a dangerous venue for the novice collector, ... When it comes to item discription, category, the seller has absolute rein over what the description is, and what category to place his item. Given this type of free for all, .... eBay ( VIRTUALLY ALL- ONLINE Auction sites are the same, eBay is simply the largest ) are a magnet for the dishonest, the faker, and the make a quick buck crowd who know nothing of what they sell. eBay and comparible on-line sites have sporned an industry in China as an example in the manufacturing of fake Japanese Swords, Koshira, yanone, yari, and this is ONLY one field of antique/collectible. You speak of : if you throw peanuts you attract monkeys, ... well my friend that is rapidly fading into the past. I have personally see yanone coming out of China that are so good that they would fool at least 90 % of the collectors, At least a couple are being offered on eBay RIGHT NOW and not for peanuts. This even though PayPal ( an eBay subsiduary ) was offered proof of them being forgeries. I have and will continue to buy objects off eBay, ... BUT I also have over 40 years of experience in the field. There are damndable few of us, but a whole mess of gulible novices out there. There are a FEW honest seller's on eBay. It is much like the story of Lawyers however, ... 99 % of Lawyers give the other 1 % a bad name. I was going to use the analogy of Politicians rather than Lawyers, ... but as I see it there are NO honest Politicians period ! By the way there are damn few honest Sword dealers were the truth be told. It is always best to run any anticipated purchase by the members of the NMB, ... that way you get the benifit of a non-biased opinion from some of the world's leading experts.

 

... Ron Watson

[Brian]

Please listen to this advice, and listen well:

Japanese sellers KNOW that the Western market will buy swords that are unwanted or unsuitable for the local market there, and they prey on this fact. What is often offered for sale on eBay are gimei, saiha or just average junk swords that are unsellable in Japan. Swords with flaws, late swords that are osuriage, or swords with old papers that would never get the same papers today. Why do so many rave about some of these sellers? Because they either don't know any better, or because they are novice enough to think a sword is a sword and any sword will do. When you are looking at these "few hundred $" swords...you are getting what you pay for, and every knowledgeable collector has been through them and rejected them.

Does this sound harsh? Probably...but it is the truth. OBVIOUSLY there are exceptions, and some decent sellers. I am not going to name or shame the good/bad ones. Just take a look at the level of expertise of those who rave about some "beginner" swords and decide for yourself if those swords are really sleepers or cast-off's.

Yes, eBay has its place, and yes..it is like any other private sale. But there are a thousand pitfalls on eBay, and here on the NMB you will likely at least know your seller or know his reputation or he willbe known to the general community, and you will have a place to sort out any grievances. You can't be blackmailed with bad feedback here, and both buyers and sellers are able to comment. No guarantees either way. But eBay is none-the-less not for beginners.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

With a shinsa in San Francisco about to take place and if past events are any measure, many, many, of the swords submitted are likely to get bounced. And just where do people think that at least a portion of those bounced swords will end up for sale over the coming weeks and months with of course a full disclosure revealing this sword was just pink slipped at shinsa

[cabowen]

With a shinsa in San Francisco about to take place if past events are any measure more than half the swords submitted are likely to get bounced. And just where do people think that at least a portion of those bounced swords will end up for sale over the coming weeks and months,

 

Probably the same place they were purchased???

[David Flynn]

Just a note. At the Sydney Shinsa, approx. 40% bounced. We were told, that the 60%pass rate was very high.

[Kevin]

Why is Ebay so bad?

 

1) No checks on what is up for sale. For example, Ebay has neither the knowledge nor the inclination to deal with Chinese fakers. They make money whether the item sold is crap or not.

 

2) A large number of buyers who think that they can get a papered Koto blade in good condition and polish for $600. I had one rant at me “Cash is king” after offering me $200 for a sword worth considerably more. To which I responded “It sure is, and you’re not offering anywhere near enough. Go and learn about antique nihonto.” I got another rant by way of reply. I sold it later at the amount I required.

 

3) A disinclination on the part of most Ebay members to spend more than $2000 on a sword because a) they can’t afford it b) there are cheaper ones and they can’t see why they should pay more c) everyone knows that the expensive ones are rip-offs.

 

4) A bad reputation which effectively drives away both good dealers and more educated customers, and thus leaves the field wide open for bad dealers and idiots. I remember one member here (forget who) saying that he would never ever buy anything on Ebay.

 

All of which makes it harder to sell anything but rubbish, which also drives away a number of dealers. I’ve had a Nakajima Rai, polished by Mishina, written up by the To-ken Society, with papers, in shirasaya with koshirae held together with a tsunagi up there for ages, on Buy It Now or Best Offer. The only offers I’ve had were derisory – a few hundred dollars. So now it’s off for Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa.

 

OTOH, a sword in rough condition selling at the equivalent of £1000 will sell rapidly.

 

It’s often said that we get the government that we deserve. I note that the attempt to get nihontoden off the ground as an alternative to Ebay totally failed because no one supported it. Perhaps we also get the market places that we deserve.

 

Kevin

[estcrh]

Alf, there is nothing bad about Ebay in general, its just an internet market place and like any market you need a certain amount of knowledge to make an informed purchase. On the forum there are people who have spent a life time (and fortune) to get to a higher level of understanding of nihonto and to those people the sword that looks nice to the average person looks no better than a steak knife.

 

The swords that these people live for are rarely sold online and never on Ebay. The Japanese do not want these swords to be sold to foreigners and even the foreign owners of these swords often will not sell them to just anyone even if you could afford it and for good reason. When you mix people who collect for different reasons and who have a different level of understanding of a subject your bound to have a difference of opinion.

 

If you want to buy a Japanese sword as an example of a weapon, or a ww2 historical item, or to just have a low cost sword to own and study then you can find a decent sword on Ebay but you will almost never find the type of sword that exemplifies what Japanese sword making has come to represent to a collector who searches for a rare high quality nihonto.

[cabowen]

Back when ebay was only a few years old there were a few years when I bought many really nice swords for next to nothing. This was when there were maybe 50 or so swords listed at any one time and there were no dealers selling there, only private parties listing grandpa's sword. Now there are usually 2000+ swords listed at any one time and you have mostly dealers selling...I hardly ever even look at ebay anymore. I am sure there are still some great buys but there was a time when it was a great place to buy swords....

[sanjuro]

Alf.

 

Just to pick up on your observation that there are double standards in operation when the members of this board advise against buying on ebay.

 

Yes, some of us do occasionally buy on ebay. Yes we do advise novice members to avoid buying on ebay. Those of us that do buy on ebay however, invariably know what we are buying, from whom we are buying and what risk we take when buying. The knowledge lessens the risk, but does not obliterate it. A novice is an absolute godsend to those sellers on ebay that more knowledgeable people would avoid, and many of the items listed are unashamedly aimed at the novice buyer.

It is not so much a double standard we practice, but more a standard of caution in a place and under circumstances that leave a novice totally exposed to a bitter dissappointment which may turn him away from an interest in Nihonto as a result of a bad buying experience.

Mostly, we get to pick up the pieces of some of those bad experiences when a novice buyer turns to the board for information, and the members here are obliged to tell them the truth about their purchase. It is not a pleasant thing to do, and there is no joy in it for those who are the bearers of bad tidings. It happens too often.

[Jean]

Nihonto E-bay,

 

Newbies should be fprbidden to buy swords from e-bay.

 

Lot of stuff from dealers or Chines fakes : from dealers, generally, these are swords which won't sell in a shop.

 

Why buy on e-bay? because people are buying things hoping they buy a treasure for a few bucks and then make a mint of gold out of it.

 

I don't buy from e-bay, because I don't gamble. Very often pictures are bad and you cannot really see what you are buying. You are very lucky if you make a very good deal on e-bay.

 

The story "I took a gamble on an e-bay sword, it tuened out to be a ....., I had it polished and papered..." It happened, (I know of Masahide sword which was sold for 50$ at a garage sale, I know the owner) now it is more and more seldom and the exception. How many finds compare to scams on Nihonto e-bay???

 

That is why is say go and see reputable dealers, or for our North American friends, if you can afford, attend Nihonto fares and buy from reputable dealers. You will learn a lot, many are friendly NMB members, never hesitate to dicuss the prices, you always get a discount - even small (it is the game).

 

I buy from e-bay but not Nihonto, I am not a gambling man and I buy from dealers I trust, mostly in North America, the business being there due to hedging. Yen is too high and sky rocketting these last days. Reason why Yen is so high in spite of the country debt, is that this debt has been bought at 95% by Japanese. It was to go on international market .....

[Surfson]

I buy on ebay quite a bit, and have picked up some great swords, along with a few boo-boos. In general, the Chinese fakes don't bring much, so I think that ebay buyers are generally on to them. What is more fascinating are the dealers that were referred to above who are buying rejects at the Japanese auctions and then putting them on ebay. These swords have big names on them, almost never have papers, and are in good polish. I like to play a game with myself - what's wrong with this sword? I never buy from these dealers and generally only focus on bring-back swords. The sad part of all of this is that there is now a steady flow of this sludge from Japan to the US and these swords will be circulating in the sword shows, auctions and private sales. This means we will have to be more vigilant than ever about the swords on our market.

[kanetoyo]

Hello

 

As for the Japanese auction, junk is 90%.However, there are a serious sword and a serious seller of 10%. As for ebay, It will be the same.I talk a few about my experience. I bought aoe tsugutada of kamakura and senjyuin kuniyuki of kamakura and tosanokami tadayoshi of keicho era with out paper at once Japanese auction. As for all of them, it was got NBTHK paper. Anyway, Please choose a seller, and own study is important.

 

Nakamura

[Kevin]

Please choose a seller, and own study is important.

 

Hi Nakamura-san. :-) Totally agree.

 

If the listing hasn't got lots of good photos, you don't know what you're getting. It's not worth bidding unless you like gambling. Unfortunately that seems to rule out most of the private sellers and bring back swords, cos their average photographic skills are usually nil. I very rarely buy bring back swords on Ebay as a result - the photographic evidence on which to base a judgement is usually not there.

 

So that means going for listings with lots of good photos - including a series of closeups of the blade - showing the whole of the blade in detail. However, even if the listing has got good photos, it is essential to research the blade in question, as well as considering each photo in detail. Is the mei kosher? Is there anything wrong with the blade? Go over the pictures paying attention to detail. Any flaws? Any hagire? How badly out of polish is it? Are you going to have to spend some money on it and if so, is it worth it? Sword and koshirae can be restored to tip-top condition, but is it worth it and can you afford it? Check feedback as well - any problems?

 

If you still have questions, any good dealer won't mind running off some extra photos if you need them. I've done it myself, as well as having asked for them. Ask questions. I've had long conversations with a potential buyer before now - I don't mind taking the time cos I want someone to be happy with the sword that they buy. Where necessary, I've also asked questions of sellers.

 

Finally, look at the returns policy. Some seller offer a 7 day inspection period. I do. That eliminates any remaining risk. You get to look at the sword in your hand. Other say 'all sales are final'.

 

Any market anywhere is going to present risks. If you haven't got the knowledge, if you haven't got good close-up pics of the blade, or you don't pay attention to the details on a series of good photos, sure, it is going to be a gamble. As Nakamura-san says, your own study is important.

 

Kevin

[sencho]

Nihonto E-bay,

 

Newbies should be fprbidden to buy swords from e-bay.

 

.....

 

I don't completely agree with Jean, although I understand his sentiment.

 

One of my first swords was from ebay when I was a new newbie and (while no National Treasure) it is great... however I do realize (now I am an older newbie) that it could have been an expensive lesson... although I have had these lessons before and learned from them.

 

I like ebay..., just bought my new Japanese Keitai on ebay, and that (luckily) did not turn out to be a chinese crapper..... (beleive me chinese crapper Japanese keitai's are out there!)... but it is always a risk, however I guess I knew what to look for.

 

There will always be people hawking junk, whatever the medium, newspapers, cards in the post office window, or internet... and there will always be novices eager to pay for said junk, against all better advice.

 

So basically... you pays your money - you takes your chance... Caveat Emptor... and if it turns out to be an expensive lesson, suck it up, learn from it and start listening to advice on the NMB... (no matter how criptic it may be!! )

 

Cheers

[Jean]

One of my first swords was from ebay when I was a new newbie

 

How many years ago Sencho?

[Herbert]

Hello,

 

I have followed the discussion and would like to add my two cents:

 

Important swords can be bought cheapest on eBay!

 

Hence eBay is highly recommended both for the starting and advanced collector. Much can be learned and the hunt for woodwork blades is a great expirience and even more fun and thrill.

 

Good luck to all sword hunters,

 

Herbert

[sanjuro]

Ah!............. We have a member of the lunatic fringe with us. Oh goody! Just what we needed.........................NOT!

[paulb]

Herbert

put a little more diplomatically If you truly believe there are numerous treasures to to be bought on Ebay good luck to you and enjoy yourself. However recommending it as the best way to buy swords is wrong, and on a board which is attempting to help guide beginners away from the many pitfalls of searching for treasures on Ebay is frankly irresponsible.

regards

Paul

[sanjuro]

Thanks Paul.... Thats exactly what I meant to say. :D It just came out a little differently.

[Herbert]

Gentlemen, I do not understand your point. What is bad about important swords at little money? Any collector should praise eBay for offering this rare chance to the whole word. eBay is definately the place where a diamond in the rough can be bought from.

 

Or may I ask you which source you recommend for getting a diamond in the rough for little money other than eBay?

 

Yours,

 

Herbert

 

PS: I do not believe there are treasures to be found on eBay. Infact I am not a man of greta belief but rather prefer to the hard facts that is the treasure which I have unerathed on eBay.

[Herbert]

Ah!............. We have a member of the lunatic fringe with us. Oh goody! Just what we needed.........................NOT!

 

PS: Where is the diplomacy in the above not to say the smallest amount of politeness?

[Herbert]

Herbert

However recommending it as the best way to buy swords is wrong,

Paul

 

Dear Paul,

 

I only said it is the best place to buy important swords at the least money. If you can name any other place where important Nihonto can be picked up cheaper please let us all know as we would sure all benefit from it.

 

Thank you,

 

Herbert

[Stephen]

life is just game, fly a paper plane, there is no end.

[Herbert]

life is just game, fly a paper plane, there is no end.

 

I'd say life doesn't take place in an armchair ... atleast mine doesn't.

[sanjuro]

Herbert.

 

Actually, my next door neighbour's dog bit me this morning and I think I'm coming down with rabies. I leave it to Paul to answer your question since I am clearly unwell and likely to start frothing at the mouth at any moment.

[Brian]

Herbert,

The role of "cryptic berater" is already taken here on the NMB. Please be so kind as to enlighten us as to what treasure you picked up on eBay. I make no claims that there are NO hidden treasures there to be found..merely that a few thousand people have to buy junk for one good item to appear :lol:

 

Brian