A suggestion

[Grey Doffin]

Today, when yet another beginning collector asked questions that have been answered a thousand times before on NMB, I got to wondering, where is our cache of answers? I was under the impression that somewhere on the Board are answers to: what does gimei mean?, should I get it polished?, where should I buy a sword?, what books do you recommend?, what oil should I use?, how can/should I clean a tsuba?, and others. I can't find them.

If this cache exists please tell me where and then I/we can direct newbies to answers that have been written already. I know the newbies can search the forums for old posts but that doesn't seem to help enough. If we don't have a cache, then I think we should start building one. I'll volunteer to write some articles, and once up, other members are welcome to suggest changes to what I've written. But we need a place the newbies can click on to get to these answers.

What do you think? Grey

[sanjuro]

Great idea!

 

The newbies will have easy access to our collective genius :D and the FAQ's would not require repetition in posts. We could actually compile an e book of those questions and the answers that could be downloaded via a link from this site. We may also want to give links to sites that are helpful to newbies eg. Japanese sword index and the like, as well as a bibliography of books that provide information for beginners in Nihonto. We all know its a long road and a steep learning curve when you first 'get the bug'.

 

The mods may groan a bit at this of course, but is that not what we are here for, to share this knowledge?

 

OK...... I'll be quiet now.

[Takahashi]

Hi Grey!

 

As I am quite new to nihonto appreciation, I can only support your idea.

It would be great to have some kind of nihonto related FAQ on this board and would prevent people to ask the same questions all over again.

Of course only if those people read the FAQ before posting questions . I sometimes get the idea that many questions might have been easily answered with a bit of research .

I would even suggest to add an article on polishing and nihonto restoration outside of Japan as this information is hard to get outside of the board.

 

Cheers!

[Brian]

Top left of the forum, I have a link to FAQ. Only on the standard Nihonto theme which most of you are using by now though, as I have no time to update the other non-standard themes anymore. But as you will note, it is a dead link. This is because I have been working on a Nihonto FAQ for a year now, but lacking much time, it is a very low process.

Ideally, I should pick out topics that aren't covered yet, and ask members to do a short write-up. I would say it is about halfway done.

Let me work on it a but this weekend, and see what we still need, and hopefully we can have this done sometime soon.

 

Brian

[Brian]

A couple of topics that I do need volunteers to perhaps write a decent paragraph about.

Any takers? Does not have to be an in-depth article, just a good summary, and can be added to later.

Will add topics here as I see they need covering.

 

First one: Why did some swordsmiths not sign their swords and why are there so many mumei swords?

 

Brian

[Rich S]

Brian -

 

Don't know if it would be of any help, but feel free to use any or all of the info in the FAQ on my website. Most is pretty basic stuff; perhaps too basic and doesn't cover all the topics mentioned. I wrote it for the total newbie to try to avoid just what you mentioned - answering the same question over and over - it really didn't do any good that I could tell. Still got the same questions.

 

Rich S

[Brian]

Thanks Rich, I did note your FAQ page, and thought of just linking people to it. But I guess we do need one, and with this field becoming more advanced, the questions are too :lol:

I have something in testing at the moment, and will definitely take you up on the offer if necessary. And yep..I expect we will still get the same questions.

One of the things that we have to address is the fact that "we do not recommend a newcommer buy their first sword off eBay, but we do know that you are going to do that regardless of what we recommend...so here's how to proceed anyways....."

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Brian,

 

I would add that should anyone, despite sound advice to the contrary , buy a blade or tsuba on ebay they don't post pics of it here for appraisal unless they're prepared to be made an example of and robust enough to handle the humiliation.

 

Naturally, we'll all be suitably congratulatory (and bitterly envious) when we finally see evidence of one of those fabled "sleeping treasures" bought for a song.

[Rich S]

Brian wrote:

 

"we do not recommend a newcommer buy their first sword off eBay, but we do know that you are going to do that regardless of what we recommend...so here's how to proceed anyways....."

 

You are so right. Regardless of all the warnings, admonitions, etc about ebay, newbies still end up there; normally buying junk. Sometimes I wonder why we try

 

Rich S

[raven2]

Brian,

 

Naturally, we'll all be suitably congratulatory (and bitterly envious) when we finally see evidence of one of those fabled "sleeping treasures" bought for a song.

 

Hey, if you find any of those "sleeping treasures" , please direct me to the end of the rainbow, I can't seem to find them.

[reinhard]

Today, when yet another beginning collector asked questions that have been answered a thousand times before on NMB

 

This came to my mind as well, but then:

There are different answers to the same questions in different threads. Some of these answers, though utterly wrong, have never been contradicted yet. - Who's going to supervise the self-declared "experts" and their "universal and final advice" on NMB?

 

With all due respect, NMB's collective knowledge is far from being capable of establishing reliable guidelines and this is not necessary either. Most of what beginners must know has been written down before and/or can be found on decent sites. If someone's not willing to spend a minimal amount of money on a few good books and time to read them, he should be left by himself (and the bay) and learn it the hard way. These books and sites should be recommended, but this is where problems already start: Some of us are recommending certain books and others are contradicting. - Even if we were able to agree on reliable sources of information (which we are obviously not) differences of interpreting them will remain. Establishing a lighthouse, containing the "collected wisdom" of NMB, would just lead to more confusion and to a false feeling of safety for newbies. Better leave it as it is and try to hire the best mods you can get.

 

reinhard

[jason_mazzy]

Thanks Rich, I did note your FAQ page, and thought of just linking people to it. But I guess we do need one, and with this field becoming more advanced, the questions are too :lol:

I have something in testing at the moment, and will definitely take you up on the offer if necessary. And yep..I expect we will still get the same questions.

One of the things that we have to address is the fact that "we do not recommend a newcommer buy their first sword off eBay, but we do know that you are going to do that regardless of what we recommend...so here's how to proceed anyways....."

 

Brian

 

 

Yes but the simple answer will then be: please see faq (insrert posted faqlink here) instead of actually having to answer it over and over.

[sanjuro]

Despite the contentious issues raised by Reinhard, I think the basic premise here is to produce something that can be used as a series of signposts to the newbies rather than a 'bible' (Which itself contains contradictions), of irrefutable information. I would for instance consider information from members such as John Stuart, Richard Stein, Chris Bowen Guido Schiller etc. to be of the highest quality and certainly not contradictory. These are sources that most frequently arise to answer the newbie questions.

If one wishes to head off the stream of repetition and its inherent contradictory answers to newbie questions, then to point them at least in the general direction of the information and give them reference to reliable source materials can only be advantageous and encourage them to research the answers for themselves.

An FAQ facility whilst it can and should directly give information, is inevitably more likely to produce more questions, since that is the nature of the beast. If that facility also provides information on relevant articles, websites and publications, it invites the person asking the question to search further and provides directional guidance for that personal research.

 

There is no doubt that those inevitable newbie questions will still be posted, but can then be diverted swiftly to the correct area rather than dealt with repetatively.

[Curgan]

As new in nihonto collecting, I feel the need to compliment on such an initiative and thank beforehand those who will put labour to it. What I would like to see in a word is the basic information and refferences for further study.

 

Nobody was born all knowing. Some are lucky to have somebody knowledgable to ask in person. Those who are not that lucky to have a personal mentor, seek forum help. Only the self taught can fully understand the difficulty of such an effort. Hopefuly the newbies of today will someday become knowledgable enough to help others.

 

In that frame the faq IMHO should provide the fundamental knowledge and intrugue someone to study. This means refferences to good books, links to websites and more elaborate articles. Questions will inevitably rise even then, but ideally they be more advanced than those tiresome and a lot of times answered.

[Brian]

This came to my mind as well, but then:

There are different answers to the same questions in different threads. Some of these answers, though utterly wrong, have never been contradicted yet. - Who's going to supervise the self-declared "experts" and their "universal and final advice" on NMB?

Who says they need supervision, and who says their advice is universal and final? I know you have an agenda again, but we are not talking about advanced knowledge here. We are talking about basics such as oiling a blade, what is gimei, where to buy etc etc. You think these are such advanced subjects that they need a commission to agree on the advice given? That isn't the intention, and the info is not something controversial. Basically..this isn't rocket science.

With all due respect, NMB's collective knowledge is far from being capable of establishing reliable guidelines and this is not necessary either. Most of what beginners must know has been written down before and/or can be found on decent sites. If someone's not willing to spend a minimal amount of money on a few good books and time to read them, he should be left by himself (and the bay) and learn it the hard way.

That's where you and this site differ. We do care about the beginners, and don't expect anyone to come here for a few years and leave as a shinsa panel member. That isn't the intention. If we prevent a few people for buying junk or eBay fakes, and start them on the right track, then they may go on to become the serious collectors of tomorrow. If not..so be it. But there are critically few places for newcomers to go to for advice. Advanced students will have traveled and seen good swords, therefore it is more important right now to catch the future collectors. And at the same time, we get to socialize and discuss things with fellow collectors. I don't see anyone holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to participate. Frankly, I find the "leave them to drown" attitude to be elitist and arrogant. But hey, that's just me...

These books and sites should be recommended' date=' but this is where problems already start: Some of us are recommending certain books and others are contradicting. - Even if we were able to agree on reliable sources of information (which we are obviously not) differences of interpreting them will remain. Establishing a lighthouse, containing the "collected wisdom" of NMB, would just lead to more confusion and to a false feeling of safety for newbies. [/quote']No..there are no problems there. You are making this out to be a bigger issue than it is. We are recommending basic knowledge. Basic books. Not advising someone about schools and traditions and advanced research. We already know you have an issue with "The Samurai sword" by John Yumoto, "The arts of the Japanese sword" by B.W.Robinson and "The Japanese sword" by Inami Hakusui. But all still have some good basic info, and when someone gets more serious, it is logical that they should progress to other books. You haven't even seen the recommended book list, and you are already criticizing it? Once again, all the FAQ needs to address is the very basic info. We are not writing a book, or discussing the Jutetsu or replacing any other study. Just preventing ourselves from having to write the same old thing time and time again.

Better leave it as it is and try to hire the best mods you can get.

Sorry, I tried the shinsa panel members, but they were not for rent. Guess we will have to do with the generosity of the current and able volunteers.

 

Brian

[raven2]

With all due respect, please do not put Reinhard on any of the caches. Not because he does not have the knowledge, but because he is so negative about everything. Obviously this is not an exact science by any means (look at the differences of opinion that can come up in shinsa). He talks about contradictions confusing people, but he is the one who is most likely to contradict. This is only going confuse people more.

[sanjuro]

This is an extremely positive initiative and a worthy pursuit. Let us not poison it with detractors and those who are basically anti everything for their own private and sick little reasons.

Brian has risen to the challenge. We at least should support him in turn, and if there is anything we as the membership can do to further the project, it should be our pleasure to assist.

[Stephen]

Great intentions one and all (well not all) but I don't want to be the one who said, the newbie's will not use it and just make statements to the effect, you told me this and that but I have learned nothing. Hope I'm wrong.

[Brian]

I wouldn't get too excited folks...I'm going for pretty basic here. Not things like "the difference between mokume/itame/masame" or "this is all the hataraki examples" as these are covered on many pages, and this is not supposed to be a Nihonto encyclopedia.

I envisage just something where someone can start who knows nothing, and wants to know how to oil his blade or what he has, or what is the difference between Showato and Gendaito, or what is a gimei etc etc.

Once we have the basics done, I can ask for and add further articles and we can grow it. I understand when people see the pitfalls, but it is not like we are claiming to be something we are not. This place is what it is, and if it wasn't helping people, then we wouldn't have many thousand views and a million hits per month. No?

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Stephen.

 

Your point is well taken I am sure, however if at the end of the day the people for whom it is created do not use the FAQ section when they have been pointed to it, then there is no help that anyone can render them.

This hobby and passion we all share is built upon study. It is a fact of life that those who will not study will find no joy in nihonto and perhaps soon fall by the wayside. Those who have questions for which there are ready answers will be directed to the source of those answers , be it an article , a reference to a website or publication. The NMB members are still there to answer the questions if they choose or to direct the questioner to the appropriate resource. The rest is up to the individual. Having the resource is the important factor at this stage. How we use it is then a matter of NMB policy.

[raven2]

This is an extremely positive initiative and a worthy pursuit. Let us not poison it with detractors and those who are basically anti everything for their own private and sick little reasons.

Brian has risen to the challenge. We at least should support him in turn, and if there is anything we as the membership can do to further the project, it should be our pleasure to assist.

 

I 100% agree that it is positive inititive and very worthy. I definitely support the idea.

[machinist]

Having a thread of book recommendations is something I have wanted for awhile, finding

out what books are best for the untutored and at a reasonable price would be nice.

[k morita]

Hi,

 

I think Dr,Stein's following link is very kindness for beginners.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/faq.htm

[Lee Bray]

Reinhard would be a more than worthy contributor.

[Brian]

I would be very happy to accept contributions from anyone willing to write one who has the knowledge. They would be edited if necessary for factual info and usefulness, but would be a good way to dispel some of the "false info" doing the rounds.

I do need articles on the following subjects, and many more that I have not covered already. Any takers?

 

Where do I buy a genuine Japanese sword?

Sword Appreciation and Identification

Why polish a Japanese sword?

Why did some swordsmiths not sign their swords and why are there so many mumei (unsigned) swords?

How do I identify a fake from a real sword (not using many pics)

 

Brian

[cspage]

A suggestion, and probably unreasonable one, would be to require newbies, after their initial post identifying themselves as such, to visit the FAQs, Glossaries, etc. before being allowed to post further...sort of dictatorial, but often a "required reading list" is part of a university course of study. I suppose it would be hell to monitor. Maybe something like..."(PLEASE!) READ THIS BEFORE PROCEEDING TO POST QUESTIONS"...

 

Would there be relative basics for tosogu (cast/not cast tsuba, etc)?

 

Colin

[Link]

Great intentions one and all (well not all) but I don't want to be the one who said, the newbie's will not use it and just make statements to the effect, you told me this and that but I have learned nothing. Hope I'm wrong.

 

Stephen, I think your almost 100% wrong let me explain, I joined this site as a complete newbi over a year ago and have learned a great deal from the collective brain trust on this site and would like to thank you and all the rest of the experts who take there time with the new guys. I have mined this site a number of times and have taken advice from it so I know other newbis have done the same. I think what it boils down too is "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" I do a fair amount of consulting and I always laugh when someone pays me for advice then turns around and completely ignores the advice those type of people are as rienhardt says "are on there own" I think a Newbi FAQ would be a benefit to the site. Anyway thanks again to NMB

Larry

[sanjuro]

Brian.

 

I'll be happy to write an article for newbies on "Where do I buy a genuine Japanese sword". PM me with any special instructions or aspects that you want covered, give me about a week, and I'll submit something appropriate.

[estcrh]

Brian.

 

I'll be happy to write an article for newbies on "Where do I buy a genuine Japanese sword". PM me with any special instructions or aspects that you want covered, give me about a week, and I'll submit something appropriate.

One of the most basic problems that I see here all the time....a person with a lot of knowledge is trying to explain some very simple problem to someone with very little knowledge and they get frustrated ..its sort of like Albert Einstein being asked to help someone with their high school math problem. It might help to have a list of people who are not so advanced, that have been helped by more advanced members here in the past. A list of people who would not mind getting a private message about the more simple questions that come up all the time.

 

Another thing is that you can tell someone all you want to just buy some books and put off buying their first sword for possibly years...while thats good advice and it would save everyone a lot of problems thats just not how human nature works..try telling a man to just read books about sex for several years and study the subject and just say no to a one night stand good advice but how many would follow it? If members can help someone avoid buying a complete fake and help them buy at least a real nihonto thats not to expensive then that should be viewed as a success. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in a persons first purchase (in a nice way) so that they can then learn and do much better on their next purchase......life is all about learning after all. We are an instant gratification society and that has to be taken into account.

[reinhard]

I know you have an agenda again, but we are not talking about advanced knowledge here. We are talking about basics such as oiling a blade. You think these are such advanced subjects that they need a commission to agree on the advice given? the info is not something controversial. Basically..this isn't rocket science.

 

I don't have an agenda. I'm watching and laughing from a distance by now. You are trying to put me in the elitist cache for reasons I can only guess, but you are wrong. How to oil a NihonTo properly is not an advanced subject, but some outrageous advice has been given in the past (probably by militaria collectors still guessing if the yakiba on their ShinGunTo is oil-quenched or traditionally hardened). You are right: It's not rocket science. But it isn't anything goes either when it comes to genuine NihonTo.

 

That's where you and this site differ. We do care about the beginners

 

Helping beginners (with non-commercial intentions) is about the only thing I have ever cared about on NMB, for advanced discussions are not taking place on public fora anyway and I have stopped searching for them years ago. It is your job to protect beginners from sharks, vultures and silly advice. Can you?

 

Frankly, I find the "leave them to drown" attitude to be elitist and arrogant.

 

Almost everything beginners need to know can be found in two or three good books. They will cost them a small fracture of the amount of money some of them are willing to spend on ugly junk they find in the bay or elsewhere and these books can be delivered almost all over the world. What do you do with people acting against all friendly advice? Exactly. You give them comfort and solace, discussing their mistreated katana-like objects at length on the basis of a few bad pics.

 

reinhard