"BRONZE TSUBA by Rakujushi of Kyoto"

[Marcin]

I would like to hear your opinion about this item. I'm unable to see clearly If mei indicates tsuba being casted.

I didn't bought it. Looks like fake copy similar to daisho set from ex Haynes collection.

Tsuba mentioned in title

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-fine-19th-century-Japanese-meiji-period-onlaid--e5e8567ccc

[Matsunoki]

Quick Look…..something seems very wrong with this one. Artistically it’s horrible. Looks flashy but….

[Lewis B]

4 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Quick Look…..something seems very wrong with this one. Artistically it’s horrible. Looks flashy but….

Agreed. The arrows in particular are awfully depicted as is the bow of the ship. I find it hard to believe a Japanese artisan would come up with  imagery like this. 

Edited June 9 by Lewis B

[Scogg]

Arrows? I thought the other boat was throwing Gunbai at the archers! 

 

[Marcin]

Thanks guys, these fakes getting stable price above 500 £ (plus bp) it’s ridiculous.

[GreyVR]

I don't really know on this piece, (I know I don't like it.) But for the sake of debate, I'll take the opposite tack, and ask what makes one suppose it's not old?

Now, before we continue, I'd like to put forward that the link claims this item is Meiji period, which means it might have been made to what the Japanese at the time believed European/American tastes were, and it was made for export. (assuming it isn't fake to start with.) The thing that stands out the most is that the people in the boats on the left side of the composition look ... like posts with heads, and the people on the right side look like people. That's a very strange artistic choice. On the other hand the dot pattern looks pretty good, so it seems likely at a minimum a real Tsuba was used to make this, wouldn't it? 



I also recently say in an auction a sword stand from the Meiji period that looked like it had a Japanese idea of an American Bald Eagle, (again perhaps for export?)

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/auctions/lot/id/1577041

Sold for 950 Euros. Add about 25-30% to that for commission. 

[Brian]

That eagle is very much a traditional Japanese depiction. Don't read too much into it.

[Matsunoki]

8 hours ago, GreyVR said:

I'll take the opposite tack, and ask what makes one suppose it's not old?

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s not old. There are old fakes as well as modern fakes.

Some fakes were made by copyists who had some manufacturing  talent but they did not have the artistic flair and “feel” for the subject they were attempting. They took short cuts and made castings look like true inlay…..fools a lot of people.

Thus tsuba has a small degree of technical merit, probably cast, hand finished and then coloured but I doubt it is mixed metal inlay…..probably clever multipatination (see Nagoya mono topic) but it is an artistic disaster.

Would need it in hand to be more confident.

imo.

[MauroP]

11 hours ago, GreyVR said:

I don't really know on this piece, (I know I don't like it.) But for the sake of debate, I'll take the opposite tack, and ask what makes one suppose it's not old?

Fully agree. Hard to judge the signature, but at least the sekigane are real.

[Marcin]

7 minutes ago, MauroP said:

Fully agree. Hard to judge the signature, but at least the sekigane are real.

Is it really that hard and costly adding sekigane just for tsuba to look genuine and used? 

[MauroP]

Not costly at all, but not so easy make them professionally looking. Often on modern tsuba sekigane are too big or very simple shaped.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Marcin said:

Is it really that hard and costly adding sekigane just for tsuba to look genuine and used? 

If you can fake a tsuba and Mei the sekigane are comparatively simple. Maybe a couple of hours work.

[Exclus1ve]

Very similar to the high-quality version of the nagoya mono…

[Marcin]

715£ or 960$ looks like a lot space for profit. If buyer was outside of UK imagine extra 20%+ in sale tax.

Edited June 10 by Marcin

[GreyVR]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

That eagle is very much a traditional Japanese depiction. Don't read too much into it.

Oh I don't mean to express a theory as a certainty.... and I agree eagles are a frequent theme, this is just suggestive by the pale head of the eagle. The American Bald Eagle stands out by it's white head feathers.

 

On the other hand, I did find this, and it's from the Early Edo Period, significantly predating America arrival or indeed the founding of the county.... 

 

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/26037

Even so, while I might be mistaken on that object, the fact that some things were made for export is still true... 

Edited June 10 by GreyVR
Pictures needed to be moved.

[Matsunoki]

It would be good to stay on topic.

From a useful detailed look at a dodgy tsuba we go onto the use of eagles in Japanese art through the ages and we bring in a sword stand for good measure.

 

[GreyVR]

12 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

It would be good to stay on topic.

From a useful detailed look at a dodgy tsuba we go onto the use of eagles in Japanese art through the ages and we bring in a sword stand for good measure.

 

I apologize, I had wanted to bring up art for export, and it seems that took up more time then I expected. (And further investigation shows that the white tailed eagle includes Japan in it's range, and it sometimes looks just like this.) 

Perhaps I should delete/edit the posts to remove eagle references? I will try. (EDIT, no they have been up too long.) 

Edited June 10 by GreyVR

[ROKUJURO]

It is certainly not a bronze TSUBA.

[Matsunoki]

6 minutes ago, GreyVR said:

I apologize, I had wanted to bring up art for export,

George, we have a separate forum section under “forums”…. “related subjects”…”other Japanese arts”

It can be frustrating when an informative specific discussion is dragged off course…..

Any aspects of export art can be kicked around happily as their own topic. 
Sorry, I’m just a grumpy old man🙂
 

[Exclus1ve]

3 hours ago, Exclus1ve said:

Very similar to the high-quality version of the nagoya mono…

This is the most correct assumption)

Here is a similar tsuba, the signature also has nothing in common.

Although looking like shakudo, the metal is probably nigurome, an alloy of katashirome (tin and lead) and copper, which only becomes shakudo after gold.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/29524

Edited June 10 by Exclus1ve

[GreyVR]

Just now, Matsunoki said:

George, we have a separate forum section under “forums”…. “related subjects”…”other Japanese arts”

It can be frustrating when an informative specific discussion is dragged off course…..

Any aspects of export art can be kicked around happily as their own topic. 
Sorry, I’m just a grumpy old man🙂
 

Well, you ARE grumpy, but art for export is on topic, even if my example was a bad one, because "If this Tsuba was genuine, but junky... it might be junky made for the idea of what Foreigners want to buy." Which if true, would make it real. 

Now, I believe @brian is right and I was in error with my example of the stand, but that doesn't remove 'export intent' as an explanation for this Tsuba's look. 

[Matsunoki]

Whatever.

[Marcin]

4 hours ago, Exclus1ve said:

This is the most correct assumption)

Here is a similar tsuba, the signature also has nothing in common.

Although looking like shakudo, the metal is probably nigurome, an alloy of katashirome (tin and lead) and copper, which only becomes shakudo after gold.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/29524

Gift 1937

Edited June 10 by Marcin

[Marcin]

Different ura side