Opinion on this mei

[Hokke]

Hello all......

 

Curious what everyone thinks about the look of this mei. When the lines of the mei are shiny all the way to the bottom, is that an indicator something has been applied to the tsuba as a preservative or anti corrosive? The lines look so rounded off, very similar to what you find on a cast piece, but on the left character individual hammer on tagane blows can be seen. Not a cast piece, just looks weird to me. 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

Here are other references for Myochin Munekatsu. 

 

https://www.nihontocraft.com/Myochin_Munekatsu_Tsuba.htm

[Hokke]

Thanks Ray, my curiosity isnt so much about the authenticity of the mei as it is about its appearance. In the link you provided you can see the finish of the tsuba is what one would expect, very flat and mat in color, whereas this one is glossy.

[Tim Evans]

it could have a wax coating. This is very commonly done to iron tsuba as a rust preventative, especially in high humidity environments. Does water bead up on the surface? Wax is easily removed by soaking in a pan of alcohol for 15 minutes or so then wiping off, repeat as neccessary. Also easily reapplied if it looks better with the wax on. 

[Hokke]

10 hours ago, Tim Evans said:

it could have a wax coating. This is very commonly done to iron tsuba as a rust preventative, especially in high humidity environments. Does water bead up on the surface? Wax is easily removed by soaking in a pan of alcohol for 15 minutes or so then wiping off, repeat as neccessary. Also easily reapplied if it looks better with the wax on. 

Thanks Tim, thats kinda what I was thinking. Not my tsuba so cant check for beading, but it makes sense.

[Curran]

Many tsuba have been waxed to some degree.

 

Personally, I don't like it. BUT- if you are not regularly looking at them and handling them, it makes sense.

Some people have their tsuba collection stored away in a safe or on a shelf for too long.

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Wax is a micro-crystalline substance which does not offer good corrosion protection if applied in a thin layer. It works better with a thick layer, but then the TSUBA will not be visible any more.....

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Wax is a micro-crystalline substance which does not offer good corrosion protection if applied in a thin layer. It works better with a thick layer, but then the TSUBA will not be visible any more.....

Thanks Jean......tell me this though, when you and @Curran look at the mei, does it look to you like wax is the reason for the gloss or is there another possible alternative?

[Bazza]

It could be clear lacquer.  I once had an iron tsuba in my early, more Western ignorant days, that had been coated with 'something'.  A slightly less than ignorant friend of the time suggested xylene as a solvent that would shift whatever it was.  Well, that didn't work, so I had no idea what it was apart from what I read about lacquer being insoluble in most anything.  So it stayed as it was and didn't deteriorate from my 'cleaning up' penchant.

 

BaZZa.

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Calabrese,

what can be seen on that single photo does look a bit suspicious indeed. I don't get the impression of a cast TSUBA, but I would not completely exclude it.  There seems to be 'something' on the surface, but the gloss could also be the result of an intense but soft brushing with something like polishing compound.

The usual solvents like alcohol are on the 'soft' side, so I would try acetone (don't inhale it!) to see if something like clear paint or wax will come off. Old clear URUSHI would indeed be quite unruly..... 

[Matsunoki]

Another possible coating is a mixture of boiled linseed oil mixed with a little white spirit. Used to protect russet iron Kabuto, Menpo etc. It dries to a slightly shiny finish.

[Hokke]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Hi Calabrese,

what can be seen on that single photo does look a bit suspicious indeed. I don't get the impression of a cast TSUBA, but I would not completely exclude it.  There seems to be 'something' on the surface, but the gloss could also be the result of an intense but soft brushing with something like polishing compound.

The usual solvents like alcohol are on the 'soft' side, so I would try acetone (don't inhale it!) to see if something like clear paint or wax will come off. Old clear URUSHI would indeed be quite unruly..... 

wow, ok.....thank you @ROKUJURO @Bazzaand @Matsunoki, several possibilities so far for this type of finish. I guess I could have posted a pic of the whole tsuba, but the finish is pretty consistent, but I'll post it anyway. Not my tsuba, just saw it listed for sale and was curious about the finish. I was unaware urushi was a possibility, thats interesting. Just for my personal edification, if it were urushi, how does it get removed, im assuming from your previous comment, acetone may not be enough. 

Lastly, how does this type of finish affect value of a piece. Is it considered typical or is it frowned upon? I always thought tsuba were better untreated and just well maintained for a natural patina. 

Edited June 8 by Hokke

[Hokke]

[Matsunoki]

Hi Calabrese

 

6 minutes ago, Hokke said:

if it were urushi, how does it get removed

I’m guessing it doesn’t! Removing urushi would likely cause a far worse appearance.

 

8 minutes ago, Hokke said:

Lastly, how does this type of finish affect value of a piece.

Depends really on what it looks like in hand. I’ve seen varnished tsuba that look horrible and oiled tsuba that look quite subtle and appealing. The boiled linseed oil treatment  can enhance and sometimes even out a patchy patina and can easily dislodge surface red rust without too much abrasion and with a little care. I  wonder if the Samurai applied any type of rust prevention to the ironwork on their swords when being worn? With Japans humidity and often severe winters I would have thought they used something. Whatever was ok with them ought to be ok with us?? Dunno. 

[Curran]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Another possible coating is a mixture of boiled linseed oil mixed with a little white spirit. Used to protect russet iron Kabuto, Menpo etc. It dries to a slightly shiny finish.

 

I'd forgotten this one, found in some of the old books. 

I tried it myself on an old iron Japanese incense burner we had in the garden. It worked well for 2 or 3 seasons.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Many of the really early iron TSUBA like KO TOSHO or KO KACHUSHI were lacquered black from the beginning. Remains of the lacquer can sometimes be seen on them still today.

Calabrese, you asked: 
....Just for my personal edification, if it were urushi, how does it get removed, im assuming from your previous comment, acetone may not be enough.... 

Old URUSHI is something very resistant and cannot be removed easily. You will have to grind it off which is often not possible in case the surface is not completely even. Another possibility is heat. While URUSHI is relatively heat resistant up to more than 100°C, it will disintegrate with temperatures exceeding 200 - 300°C like any other form of plastic or organic substance.

Thank you for showing the MYOCHIN TSUBA in full. It does not look cast to me at all.

[Tim Evans]

7 hours ago, Hokke said:

I was unaware urushi was a possibility, thats interesting. Just for my personal edification, if it were urushi, how does it get removed, im assuming from your previous comment, acetone may not be enough. 

Lastly, how does this type of finish affect value of a piece. Is it considered typical or is it frowned upon? I always thought tsuba were better untreated and just well maintained for a natural patina. 

Urushi is best left as it is because it is very hard and inert. It is normally dark brown or black, not clear. Also, on old iron fighting tsuba, urushi may have been the original finish and should not be disturbed.

 

Bob Haynes once told me "they were too busy killng each other to bother with an artistic patina" I suspect many of the the kotosho and kokatchushi tsuba were oil blackened, meaning they were heated up and then brushed with oil and the process repeated until a dark, polymerized oil surface was created, Quick and easy. Sometimes this polymerised layer is mistaken for urushi, but it will come off with solvents. 

7 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I  wonder if the Samurai applied any type of rust prevention to the ironwork on their swords when being worn? With Japans humidity and often severe winters I would have thought they used something. Whatever was ok with them ought to be ok with us?? Dunno. 

Akiyama goes into the various vegatable oils that were used on iron tsuba as preservative and appearance changers in one of his Token Kai Shi articles, so I think the application of oil was commonly done. What we call patina is a mixture of iron oxides, dirt, oil, and hand grease. Sasano advocated that this top layer be removed by scraping with deer antler and then the remaining fine particle magnetite be polished by rubbing with a cloth, resulting in a glossy surface. After he died, the fashion flipped and high level iron tsuba collectors valued "undisturbed looking" patina rather than cleaned up and polished. One of the downsides of cleaned up and polished is that these tsuba can easily attract rust, so they need to be periodically monitored and maintained, and ideally not handled with bare fingers. Rust never sleeps.

[Hokke]

5 hours ago, Tim Evans said:

Urushi is best left as it is because it is very hard and inert. It is normally dark brown or black, not clear. Also, on old iron fighting tsuba, urushi may have been the original finish and should not be disturbed.

 

Bob Haynes once told me "they were too busy killng each other to bother with an artistic patina" I suspect many of the the kotosho and kokatchushi tsuba were oil blackened, meaning they were heated up and then brushed with oil and the process repeated until a dark, polymerized oil surface was created, Quick and easy. Sometimes this polymerised layer is mistaken for urushi, but it will come off with solvents. 

Akiyama goes into the various vegatable oils that were used on iron tsuba as preservative and appearance changers in one of his Token Kai Shi articles, so I think the application of oil was commonly done. What we call patina is a mixture of iron oxides, dirt, oil, and hand grease. Sasano advocated that this top layer be removed by scraping with deer antler and then the remaining fine particle magnetite be polished by rubbing with a cloth, resulting in a glossy surface. After he died, the fashion flipped and high level iron tsuba collectors valued "undisturbed looking" patina rather than cleaned up and polished. One of the downsides of cleaned up and polished is that these tsuba can easily attract rust, so they need to be periodically monitored and maintained, and ideally not handled with bare fingers. Rust never sleeps.

Great post, I appreciate it

[ROKUJURO]

SASANO-SENSEI used pointed tools made of antler, bone, ivory or bamboo to scrape off red rust on iron TSUBA (see below). He also exposed TSUBA to humid air by hanging them out on a string. After some time, he rubbed them with clean cotton and carried them for a long while in the pockets of his trousers. He said the moisture evaporating from the body and the very light rubbing of the fabric resulted in a good and natural patina.
On the other hand, Mrs. SASANO was angry with him about that method as she had to mend his worn-through pockets ever and ever again!

He also recommended to handle iron TSUBA with bare hands while soft metal TSUBA should be handled with cotton gloves.

 

 

 

[Hokke]

Just a follow up…..I ended up picking this up, it was cheap enough and I’m curious about the finish. When it arrives I’ll share what I find and I’m certain I’ll have additional questions. Thanks for the input from everyone, tsuba and their characteristics are a new endeavor for me. 

[Curran]

Lots of good answers from various members in this thread.

I'll be curious to see how this one works out.

[Kiko]

Hi everybody, talking about coating and R. E. Haynes, I got this tetsu-sukashi piece depicting koto bridges and signed Yoshitaka from the Czerny's auction of his study collection (n°154).

Does this looks like characteristic urushi flaking out to you ?

[ROKUJURO]

No, this looks very much like scale, so this TSUBA has likely been in a fire. Usually, URUSHI does not flake off. 

The photo quality does not allow to read the signature. Is it a KINAI TSUBA?

[Kiko]

Thanks Jean !

The piece is said by the catalog to be inscribed Sashū jū 佐州住, so Sado province / island, but honestly only the second kanji seems still readable to me.

I didn't expect the fire to produce a surface texture that looks so much like peeling paint, I’d really like to understand the chemical process. But are you referring to exposure to a fire, or to something intentional during the manufacturing process?

Edited June 25 by Kiko
Precision

[Bugyotsuji]

Nicolas, nice design!
Can you get a clearer shot of the Mei?

[ROKUJURO]

7 hours ago, Kiko said:

....I didn't expect the fire to produce a surface texture that looks so much like peeling paint, I’d really like to understand the chemical process. But are you referring to exposure to a fire, or to something intentional during the manufacturing process?

It is certainly not intended but accidental fire damage. Scale is highly oxidized iron (Fe2O3 x FeO = Fe3O4). It is called magnetite, and in case you can peel off a tiny bit*, you will see that it sticks to a magnet. Peeled-off paint will not do this.

Other than sword blades, TSUBA do not lose their functionality after being in a fire, but scale is considered a KIZU. 

* It will not come off easily as it is harder than the base material, but quite brittle. Usually, you will have to tap it carefully will a small but hard tool like a metal-file. You could also try to scrape it off carefully (again) with a sharp knife without damaging the metal underneath.

[Kiko]

Thanks again Jean, I should have thought of the magnet test! Just tried but unfortunately (?), the layer doesn't come off as easily as one might have expected, and I have to admit that—while I’m very keen on gaining knowledge—I’m a bit afraid of damaging the piece further.
The last time I faced the dilemma of using a saw for scientific purposes, I eventually pulled some strings to get the tsuba into a public lab for a quick CT scan, so perhaps I’ll think up another scheme…

 

Thanks, Piers ! I admit I was won over by its elegant simplicity. Here are the best photos I managed to get of the signature; it is truly very shy and difficult to reveal. I hadn't paid any attention to the signature until now; even with the best will in the world, I really wonder how one is supposed to find "Yoshitaka saku" (吉高作) there, as stated in the catalog! If it is a mistake—and it wouldn't be the only one in this auction—perhaps someone who owns Haynes's *Gai So Shi* could take a look at entry number 131 to see what it says; unfortunately, I do not have that publication.

 

 

Edited June 25 by Kiko
Precision

[ROKUJURO]

Nicolas,

your photos are good but the condition of your TSUBA not so much...

I think I can read SASHÛ, but I don't think YOSHITAKA would be correct as YOSHI appears to be chiseled just before SAKU. 
So TAKAYOSHI would be closer, but the first name KANJI is not TAKA I think. But we have experts here in the TRANSLATION section who will certainly help, so please try it there!

Concerning the condition of your TSUBA, I think it could be restored, but not with little effort. Scale will come off with moderate blunt force, that is, you tap on it and it comes off - or not! This method may leave marks on the metal underneath.

A mechanically softer but in fact more brutal method is the use of acetic acid ('concentrated vinegar'). It will strip the TSUBA from the scale, but you will need a complete patina restoration afterwards.

And of course scale is TSUBA material (= iron) turned into oxide, so there will be a loss of material.

Another thing is the thickness of the scale. It builds up as long as the object is exposed to high heat. In your case, the scale layer is quite thick in my observation, so it must have been quite a big fire it was in.

 

[Kiko]

I quite agree, Jean; the condition of this guard is rather sorry—and I must say, my photos reveal this even more starkly than I had previously noticed. Had I made the trip to Italy in person, I likely would have passed on it, despite its undeniable aesthetic appeal. However, since one cannot bring items back directly—as obtaining export papers often takes a good two months—I preferred to bid cautiously from Paris; in the end, the guard cost little more than the shipping itself.

 

Consequently, I am inclined to preserve it exactly as it is: it was a study piece, and a study piece it shall remain—plus, I am now better equipped to appreciate certain surface details in the future!

 

As for the signature, I fully agree there as well; I cannot imagine by what miracle it could be read as "Yoshitaka."

I’d also like to take this opportunity to apologize to Hokke for shamelessly hijacking this thread!

Edited June 25 by Kiko
Compulsory editor there

[MauroP]

The signature is indeed Sashū jū Yoshitaka saku, but written 佐州住 好古作.