MattBrandon Posted June 2 Report Posted June 2 Hello everyone, this is my first post here, and I appreciate being able to join the discussion. I’m looking for help identifying a WWII Japanese officer’s sword that my father brought back from the Pacific after the war. He served from 1943 to 1945 in the 1539th Ordnance and Supply unit and was in the Pacific from New Guinea to Okinawa. He said Japanese officers had to surrender their swords after the surrender, and I believe he may have been involved in collecting them. The sword appears to be an Army officer shin guntō with matching assembly numbers on several parts, including 135. The tang has no visible arsenal stamps on either side that I can see. The blade has a visible hamon, and the tang is signed. My current best reading of the mei is: 仙台住兼宗作 Sendai jū Kanemune saku “Made by Kanemune, resident of Sendai.” I would appreciate any help with: confirming or correcting the mei identifying the smith opinions on whether the blade is traditionally made or wartime production any comments on the mounts and matching numbers I’m posting a few photos first because of upload limits, and I can add more details if needed. 1 Quote
Scogg Posted June 2 Report Posted June 2 Hello @MattBrandon, welcome to the forum. I'm going to relocate your post to the "translation assistance" section. I think you'll get a faster reply there. The fittings are pretty standard "Type 98 Shin Guntō" fittings with nice looking leather combat cover on the scabbard. The matching "135" numbers is great to have, and strongly suggests that your fittings are originally made for the blade. This is a good thing, because often times we see swords that are "pieced together" from mismatched parts. Looks in nice condition. Best of luck, -Sam 1 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 2 Author Report Posted June 2 41 minutes ago, Scogg said: Hello @MattBrandon, welcome to the forum. I'm going to relocate your post to the "translation assistance" section. I think you'll get a faster reply there. The fittings are pretty standard "Type 98 Shin Guntō" fittings with nice looking leather combat cover on the scabbard. The matching "135" numbers is great to have, and strongly suggests that your fittings are originally made for the blade. This is a good thing, because often times we see swords that are "pieced together" from mismatched parts. Looks in nice condition. Best of luck, -Sam Thanks for the help Sam. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted June 2 Report Posted June 2 Not KANEMUNE, MEI looks more like MITSUHIRO. Province might be OWARI/OSHU. 2 Quote
Nobody Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 6 hours ago, MattBrandon said: ................................. My current best reading of the mei is: 仙台住兼宗作 Sendai jū Kanemune saku “Made by Kanemune, resident of Sendai.” .............................................................................................. Whoever said that was completely different. 尾州住人真野光弘作之 (Bishu junin Mano Mitsuhiro saku kore) – A resident of Bishu (= Owari province), Mano Mitsuhiro made this. 6 1 Quote
rebcannonshooter Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 Moriyama-san, why does the "Nin" kanji have the extra strokes on it? (Mitsuhiro used 4 strokes on this kanji instead of 2), which had me scratching my head in confusion. "Nin" was the only thing that made sense there, but I never saw it written this way. Thankyou, Tom Quote
Nobody Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 1 hour ago, rebcannonshooter said: Moriyama-san, why does the "Nin" kanji have the extra strokes on it? (Mitsuhiro used 4 strokes on this kanji instead of 2), which had me scratching my head in confusion. "Nin" was the only thing that made sense there, but I never saw it written this way. Thankyou, Tom I only know that it is one of variant forms of 人. I think that there is no deep meaning. Ref. File:U3139a.svg - Wikimedia Commons BTW, I usually write 7 in the left form in the attached image, whereas most people here write 7 in the right form. Because, when I was young, I often read German blueprints with handwriting characters, and I liked them. 4 Quote
John C Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 8 hours ago, MattBrandon said: few photos By the way, VERY nice M1941 Johnson. John C. 1 Quote
rebcannonshooter Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 Thankyou Moriyama-san, I I did a long back and forth with AI on this kanji, and the AI wasn't able to explain anything about it being a variant. You are most generous with your time and knowledge, Thanks again, Tom 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 Matt, and minor FYI - the blue/brown tassel is the Company grade tassel for Lt's & Capt's (Warrant officers too, I think). As for the blade, I'm really bad at this, but I think it could be traditionally made. (this will get the real experts to chime it for you!). Another note: Based on my chart and files, blades with dates on the end of the nakago (tang) like yours - vertical, blade tip up - were made from 1943 - 1945. Just to give you an idea about the manufacture range. 2 Quote
Brian Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 3 hours ago, John C said: By the way, VERY nice M1941 Johnson. John C. Was just going to say that :-) Wow. 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 3 Author Report Posted June 3 12 hours ago, Nobody said: Whoever said that was completely different. 尾州住人真野光弘作之 (Bishu junin Mano Mitsuhiro saku kore) – A resident of Bishu (= Owari province), Mano Mitsuhiro made this. Thank you for the information.Can you tell me more about him? What does this tell me about this sword? I am amazed at the information and depth of knowledge on this board! Thanks Matt Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 3 Author Report Posted June 3 10 hours ago, John C said: By the way, VERY nice M1941 Johnson. John C. Thank you, that was also a "bring back" from my dad. Quote
Conway Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 Maybe this smith is a possible relation of Mano Masayasu and Mano Kuniyasu, who were also smiths (and brothers) from Owari during WW2. Here are a few other examples found online, but no additional details on the smith. Maybe @mecox has some knowledge of this smith. https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b1119732614 https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/o1145185613 Also, that’s a nice looking display! 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 3 Author Report Posted June 3 Again, thank you for your help with this. I would love to create a bio page on Mano Mitsuhiro and share what I've learned. I also have a few other questions. Is there a better place to post them, since this thread is focused on translations? Should I have this sword polished, or should I simply leave it as is? It has accumulated a few minor scratches over the years. They're light and mostly cosmetic, but being a bit OCD about these things, they tend to catch my eye. The sword is missing its sarute. If I remember correctly, the original one was fairly plain. Should I look for a replacement, or is it better to leave the sword as-is? The retaining latch has broken off. The remaining portion still has the matching assembly number, but I'm concerned that the blade could potentially slide out of the saya. I've found a replacement for sale for $75—possibly from someone on this forum. Would you recommend installing a replacement for safety, or leaving the original broken part in place? I'd appreciate any advice from those with more experience in restoration versus preservation. Thank you. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 I have a gunto with a latch that will not catch the edge of the saya and the blade simply slides out if tipped the wrong way. I've scared myself a couple of times. It's certainly safer if you can replace the latch, if you can find one to fit properly. They do vary a bit in size and length. But it's worth a try. Be ready for the possibility that the replacement doesn't fit or won't catch well enough, though. 1 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 3 Author Report Posted June 3 One obvious thing is that the tang has two mekugi-ana (peg holes), whereas many Gunto examples I've seen have only one. Is the presence of two mekugi-ana significant? Does it suggest the blade was originally made for civilian/family use before being fitted with military mounts? I'd be interested in hearing what conclusions, if any, experienced collectors would draw from a WWII-era blade having two mekugi-ana. Quote
John C Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 1 hour ago, MattBrandon said: I'd be interested in hearing what conclusions, Matt: I'll give you one possibility. An officer may purchase a blade that was originally designed for an RS/type3/1940 style fittings (hence the two mekugi-ana). But had the type 98 fittings mounted instead, which use only the top mekugi-ana. I have a star-stamped sword that is just the opposite - one mekugi-ana RJT sword in RS mounts. John C. p.s. FYI in cases where a civilian sword were used, the mekugi-ana would be much closer together. 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 3 Report Posted June 3 Yes, I have seen a few blades that were obviously made for RS mounts (Type 3) but were in Type 98 fittings. Not normal, but not unusual. 2 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 5 Author Report Posted June 5 I’m not sure if this is a typical thread for this forum, as I’m new here, but everyone has been much more civil than the Gun Board I joined while trying to learn about my father’s M1941 Johnson rifle. What I hoped would be a discussion about history and identification turned into a major pissing contest. Thank you for providing such a great place to learn. I ordered what I hope is a close reproduction of my officer sword tassel and plan to store my original safely. I also ordered the retaining latch for the sheath, which was supposed to be original. I still need a sarute. There are a few reproductions I wouldn’t mind, but one seller is charging $20 for the item and $99 for shipping, which is a little hard to justify. Does anyone know a good source for an original or a good reproduction? 3 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 5 Report Posted June 5 Two replicas on ebay: Replica 1 Replica 2 Crimson Mist - real one He also has several chuso (latches) if your first one doesn't work/fit. Crimson Mist - chuso page Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 13 Author Report Posted June 13 @Bruce Pennington So I order a sartue, a nice looking one that should fit the sword. I also ordered the chuso which is supposed to be real. Cost me a pretty penny, so I hope it is real. I know you have replaced one before, so how did you get the chuso out of the fuchi? Mine doesn't sink deep enough to clear the fuchi to pass it's way out. This make me wonder if I can get this new one in as well. Any suggestions? 1 Quote
MattBrandon Posted June 13 Author Report Posted June 13 15 minutes ago, MattBrandon said: @Bruce Pennington So I order a sartue, a nice looking one that should fit the sword. I also ordered the chuso which is supposed to be real. Cost me a pretty penny, so I hope it is real. I know you have replaced one before, so how did you get the chuso out of the fuchi? Mine doesn't sink deep enough to clear the fuchi to pass it's way out. This make me wonder if I can get this new one in as well. Any suggestions? 15 minutes ago, MattBrandon said: I did finally get it out and got the "new" one in. But... the new one seems to not fit properly. The latch does not extend quite far enough to latch the saya. Plus the spring seems to be too short (see picture) as it lays up against the wood of the handle and not in the hole inside the fuchi as my old one did. So I guess I am stuck with an $85 part that doesn't fit my sword. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 14 Report Posted June 14 Rats. That is the difficulty in trying to find replacement parts. Almost every gunto had parts specifically fitted for it, so there is quite a range in almost every one. I don't see a problem with the spring resting on the wood, unless it doesn't push the button up high enough. You might try raising the surface of the wood by laying something firm between the wood and spring, like a piece of sheet metal or plastic. Otherwise, you're stuck with buying multiple latches, if you can't get a refund. 2 Quote
The Blacksmith Posted June 14 Report Posted June 14 @MattBrandon Welcome to the forum For what it is worth, I had a Shin-Gunto dated March 1943 (Showa Ju Hachi Nen San Gatsu), which had three megugi ana. The difference was that on the blade that I had all the holes were quite close together, which is a bit unusual for such a late blade. If the chuso doesn't fit, I am sure that you can either sell it on the for sale page here on the forum, or dare I say it, flea bay. As regards polishing, well, it would as I am sure that you know, cost a great deal to have polished, which must be done by a good professional, and take a lot of time to accomplish and get back. Possibly, as it was a bring back, some of these marks were from its service life, and if they are not too serious I would personally leave them, When polished you would also need either shira saya, or probably to replace or at least clean thoroughly the wooden saya linings, as dirty ones may have grit and oil etc stuck to them which could mar a new polish almost immediately. Removing the linings is worth it though, as there may be additional information written on them. The blade that I mentioned earlier ( mei: Oite Noshu Ju Katsuyama Yakushi Sanrinka Yoshimich kore wo tsukuru ) had a profuse amout of writing on the scabbard lining, which I deeply regret I never photographed or translated. Enjoy your sword, it looks a nice one. 1 Quote
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