a KOTO period blade in WW2 IJA mounts: your valued opinions please

paulatim · April 28

Hello everyone,

A friend in Melbourne is seeking your help regarding this gunto which he has recently added to his small collection . I've put this request in the "Nihonto" section of the Forum as the blade is said to have been forged in the KOTO period.

This is a WW2 Australian veteran bring-back. The previous owner was gifted this by the man's widow and as far as known it has not been 'messed with' over the years.

In 1988 a Melbourne-based company "Mildenhall Antiques" valued this item at $1200. It was described as "a shortened samurai cavalry sword" with the blade being forged in the KOTO period". It is unsigned with three tang holes. Sarute missing. Military Koshirae. Here are some measurements from the new owner:

Overall length out of scabbard 135 cm

Scabbard length 79.5 cm

Handle length 20.8 cm

Blade tip to tsuba 75.5 cm

Overall length in scabbard 175 cm

Today, the tsuka is proving too difficult to remove and my mate fears damaging same, so there are no other pics of the other side of the nakago at this time. My apologies. There are no photos of the munemachi.

Mike would be delighted to learn more about his new acquisition - thank you in advance for your comments. Any information received will be for his private / personal use only.

Paul

vajo · April 28

Looks like a nice Type94 Koshirae.

For the blade you must show it full naked to see more.

Its an old blade yes. But we need to see more.

Rawa · April 28

50 minutes ago, vajo said:

Looks like a nice Type94 Koshirae.

For the blade you must show it full naked to see more.

Its an old blade yes. But we need to see more.

Yes, it looks like removable hanger was removed and existing one originally was at spot near tsuba.

@paulatim it’s almost complete T94 gunto koshirae.

one haikan but:

-clear marks after both, there was leather stripe under usually,

-centered chuso,

-separate sarute barrel from kabuto-gane,

-tsuba is fat type,

extra long saya made for blade.

Ask Your friend for pictures of tsuba and seppa laying one near another.

There could be stamps from fittings shop as ishizuki and kabuto-gane aren’t fixed in place by pins.

As for blade - hamon looks like suguha, oldest type seen on ancient blades.

I don’t see boshi (hamon pattern at tip of blade) and bo-hi dsn’t extend on nakago?

3 separate mekugi ana and no sign of bo-hi? Either atobori (added later by different smith) or we have some issues with blade being shortened and not having atributes.

Edited April 28 by Rawa

ROKUJURO · April 28

Paul,

I do not believe in the measurements given. The length of the sword without SAYA will be less that 100 cm, not 135 cm. Overall length in scabbard should be something like 105 cm, if I calculated correctly.

A military sword of 175 cm length would be rare and larger than most Japanese even today!

Brian · April 28

No such thing as tsuka being too difficult to remove unless it was glued in and that is unlikely. Have a search of the forum for remove tsuka, he should be able to do it without damaging anything. They were made to be taken apart. It's vital to see the blade complete and without fittings.
Looks like a nice sword.

Rawa · April 28

6 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Paul,

I do not believe in the measurements given. The length of the sword without SAYA will be less that 100 cm, not 135 cm. Overall length in scabbard should be something like 105 cm, if I calculated correctly.

A military sword of 175 cm length would be rare and larger than most Japanese even today!

Clearly bad measurements saya 80 so tsuka 55? Definietly wrong but longer then usual.
First haikan should be 6cm under Tsuba? Second 16cm.

Edited April 28 by Rawa

Rawa · April 28

4 minutes ago, Brian said:

No such thing as tsuka being too difficult to remove unless it was glued in and that is unlikely. Have a search of the forum for remove tsuka, he should be able to do it without damaging anything. They were made to be taken apart. It's vital to see the blade complete and without fittings.
Looks like a nice sword.

He posted nakago photos already.

2devnul · April 28

To bad we don't have whole Sugata pictures and Nakago without Habaki etc.

For me something is not right with this sword. If it is Suriage (number of Mekugi-ana) then what happen to Bohi? If Nakago is Ubu, then (even with ignoring extra Mekugi-ana) it looks strange to me.

Also Kissaki and Yokote looks odd.

Can you please share proper measurements and more pictures of the sword? With full Sugata (tip up) and Nakago without mount/Habaki.

Brian · April 28

3 hours ago, Rawa said:

He posted nakago photos already.

Quote

Today, the tsuka is proving too difficult to remove and my mate fears damaging same, so there are no other pics of the other side of the nakago at this time.

Rawa · April 28

19 minutes ago, Brian said:

I get it. He used pictures from auction. Those with green background. It was jauce seller.

paulatim · April 29

*Thanks* to everyone for your comments to date.

Mike has remeasured the sword, and apologises for the confusion ...

Overall length in scabbard....108 cm

Handle length....28 cm

Blade tip to tsuba...75 cm

Thanks, Paul

Brian · April 29

Blade length is measured in a straight line along the back, from the tip to the notch where the habaki sits, the mune-machi.

paulatim · April 29

Thanks Brian ...

I've received quite a few more photos from Mike today - I hope they will further assist members to form opinions of this gunto.

Thanks, Paul

paulatim · April 29

16 hours ago, Rawa said:

I get it. He used pictures from auction. Those with green background. It was jauce seller.

Nah .. all photos taken by Mike in downtown Melbourne. This sword has been in Australia since the serviceman brought it home from the Pacific Campaign.

The Blacksmith · April 29

21 hours ago, Brian said:

No such thing as tsuka being too difficult to remove unless it was glued in and that is unlikely.

Looks like a nice sword.

Brian, whilst I would generally agree with you on this, though they can be a bit stubborn occassionally, I did once eventually remove a tsuka for a Japanese friend who had obtained a Nodachi. The Tsuka was an absolute bi*ch to remove and took ages and ages and a lot of careful effort. It wasn't, I must admit, helped by the fact that the tsuba was covered in very thin black leather, so I needed to be extra careful. The leather covered tsuba was something that I had never seen before, or since that I can recall. It was just the rust on the nakago holding the tsuka very firm, plus of course in this case, the tsuka being extra long didn't help!

And yes, it does indeed look like a nice and interesting sword! :thumbsup:

Rawa · April 29

5 hours ago, paulatim said:

Thanks Brian ...

I've received quite a few more photos from Mike today - I hope they will further assist members to form opinions of this gunto.

Thanks, Paul

Thank You for more pictures. I'm sold on this piece.

@Bruce Pennington tsuba is marked "8", it looks more like lucky charm then simple number just at tsuba.

What do You think? Any examples of "naked lone 8" stamp on blades or mountings?

I will put info here, quote from reddit:

"In Japanese, the number 8 (八, hachi or ya) is considered a very lucky number representing growth, prosperity, and abundance, rather than just the digit itself. Its luckiness stems from the kanji character 八, which is broad at the bottom (known as suehirogari), symbolizing a future that opens up or prospers over time"

I'm posting pictures from mon book maybe meaning of this stamp is actually tennen hyotan - calabash, which is also lucky charm, conteiner for evil spirits or sth like it.

Stamping it on tsuba have some meaning. I can't translate it yet so some help needed.

Edited April 29 by Rawa

PNSSHOGUN · April 29

Let's not get too carried away, it's clearly the number "8" used as an assembly mark.

Bruce Pennington · April 29

38 minutes ago, Rawa said:

tsuba is marked "8", it looks more like lucky charm then simple number just at tsuba.

What do You think? Any examples of "naked lone 8" stamp on blades or mountings?

Interesting theory, Marcin. It would normally be considered a fittings assembly number, but supporting your idea is the fact that the number is not on the other pieces (only one side of the seppa are shown. It would help to see the other side, too). I have two blades on file with an "8" on the nakagojiri. A Kanemichi and a Hidetoshi:

8horizontalon43Kanemichi.png.0ad96b5e91a65661fd4e34b5a25bdfc2.png

Filed under "Unknown". I've been assuming they are a shop logo, but your idea is just as plausible.

2devnul · April 29

What about extra Mekugi-ana? I assume Nakago is Ubu due to the Bohi. Appears that 2x extra Mekugi were made to mount Tsuka with two pegs. It happen I know, but was rather unusual. Maybe a very long Tsuka was mounted on this blade. So who is gonna take wild guess on the attribution to smith/school?

Rawa · April 29

18 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting theory, Marcin. It would normally be considered a fittings assembly number, but supporting your idea is the fact that the number is not on the other pieces (only one side of the seppa are shown. It would help to see the other side, too). I have two blades on file with an "8" on the nakagojiri. A Kanemichi and a Hidetoshi:

Filed under "Unknown". I've been assuming they are a shop logo, but your idea is just as plausible.

exactly Bruce, I know well that it can be assembly number but having Yours examples gives some space.

John C · April 29

I think John is correct. It's just a number 8. That said, if one were superstitious and could pick a number to stamp into their sword, then why not pick the number 8. But that's probably all there is to it.

John C.

Brian · April 29

I'm pretty sure they are assembly numbers. Why stamp a longer number if you have less than 10 you are working on at that time, and want to make sure the parts go back together with the right sword. Lack of numbers on the other parts likely just means they were swapped at some stage. Or all the other parts were in a box marked 8, and they just had to find blade 8 to reassemble.

Scogg · April 29

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

What about extra Mekugi-ana? I assume Nakago is Ubu due to the Bohi. Appears that 2x extra Mekugi were made to mount Tsuka with two pegs. It happen I know, but was rather unusual. Maybe a very long Tsuka was mounted on this blade. So who is gonna take wild guess on the attribution to smith/school?

I suspect it's suriage, with atobi (Bohi grooves added later by someone other than original smith).
https://nihonto.com/about-swords/glossary/

Can't help with smith/school, but I suspect this is an old blade. I would guess Nanbokucho to early Muromachi.
Take my age estimate with a big grain of salt, I'm just a collector and not an expert.
Best,
-Sam

PS. I agree with the above about the 8 stamp on the tsuba. I think it likely has more to do with assembly than symbology in my opinion.

Edited April 29 by Scogg
Some spelling errors

Rawa · April 29

@BrianI'm not going to fight for this. Seppa set isn't typical afterall. I found on the forum picture with seppa sets. Still blade looks older then shin gunto establisment.