New Polisher Experience

[george trotter]

Hi Joe, I have been following your thread and the pro and con comments about hadori vs sashikomi...very interesting. For my personal view may I say the following concerning your swords...that is, I must speak up for sashikomi! Being historically minded I find it appropriate to stay with the type of polish that the blade originally wore...as much as possible of course. This is almost exclusively sashikomi!

So, with regard to the shinto blade...it is unlikely to have had hadori...it "jars" me to see hadori on such a blade (I know this is your sword and a matter of personal taste, so please excuse my boldness here).

Your RJT blade by Norimitsu I thought (from the pics) did not really need a re-polish...in my view, it is better to have 95% of the original sashikomi polish visible than to re-do in post-war "fashion" hadori (based on there being no threatening rust that had to be got rid of of course). I have a RJT blade in worse "dirty" condition than yours and I am seriously considering keeping it that way as I fear it being "diminished" by re-polish...even sashikomi. I say this because some blades I previously owned have again come to hand and I must say that the transition by the new owner from 95-99% original sashikomi polishes to 100% modern hadori was devastating to see...the size, dimensions, hamon were all visibly altered and the features I originally loved are no longer present...for me, the blades have gone from wow to ho-hum (including a Yasukunito by Yasunori).

I suppose what I am saying to members is that IMHO it is better, where possible to "leave it be". If it "needs" a re-polish, IMHO, it is best to retain it in the original sashikomi style...but even then, be prepared to not really "recognize" you blade when it returns!. While hadori is largely a post war fashion, I do have a WWII gendaito that is in original WWII period hadori (because of the complexity of the hamon), so there is a historical case for it...other than a sword originally being in hadori though, I would avoid it as a re-polish...just an old geezer's view, based on the joy of seeing many, many beautiful, clear-sashikomi-hamoned pre-hadori blades.

Hope I don't offend...

George.

[watsonmil]

Dear Joe,

I could not agree more with George. I have posted this under another thread, ... but it is just as appropriate here.

My definition ( after having examined many hundreds of blades ) of the Hadori verses Sashikomi polish question is this : Tradition was Sashikomi, .... Politics was Hadori. Modern connisseurs seem to prefer hadori, .... the Samurai prefered the more subtle sashikomi ( Oh I already know it was not until the end of the samurai era that hadori appeared, ... but show me a case of the Samurai wanting to be flashy rather than reserved and I'll grant you a point ). Like some men prefer painted hookers, ... some prefer natural beauty. It is all a matter of personal taste. Some men revel in Politics, ... personally I find Politicians obscene. Some men prefer to be politically correct and be followers, ... I prefer freedom of expression over what's currently in style. I guess I've made it clear where my preferences lay, .... it is simply personal taste, ... and an adherence to tradition with me.

........ Ron Watson

[tagonagy]

By the way, outside of two Japanese trained polishers in the US, with one of these in Hawaii, the other in San Fransisco, there are no currently acceptable polishers in the US. That makes it rather simple.....

 

I thought there was a Japanese trained polisher in New York too.

[cabowen]

I do not believe there is one that was fully trained. I know there is one in that general area that spent a few months here and there in Japan but I wouldn't call that qualified. If there is someone who was fully trained, I would like to know about it....

 

 

Let me add the following....There are two parts to proper polishing: the technical aspects of being able to correctly use the stones and finishing materials to properly correct, shape and finish the blade, and the kantei knowledge necessary to use those skills to put the blade in the appropriate condition for its age, tradition, and maker. An important part of that is knowing how to accentuate and downplay aspects of the blade to allow it to look its best. Fixing flaws and defects is part of

that...While it may take only 3-4 years to learn the technical aspects, the correct application of those skills takes deep knowledge of kantei-something that takes much longer and requires directed study under an expert with many quality blades. It isn't learned from books, videos, or trial and error.

 

To use an analogy, a classical musician needs both the technical ability to play the instrument and a knowledge of music theory to make "music". One without the other produces nothing but noise.....I have yet to see an amateur polisher's work (and I have seen a lot) that shows a mastery of both the technical skills (they fail usually at foundation work (lots of waves in the blade) or finishing (hadori is incorrect) or both) and kantei (if the blade is unsigned, they are almost all shooting in the dark)....

[Eric H]

A sword that might be worth to be polished should be handed over to a qualified Togishi. He will decide how to polish the blade, he is an expert having behind him an apprenticeship of 8 to 10 years! There is (in my opinion) no place for personal preferences like „Hadori or Sashikomi“, though I remember an organization in Australia who insisted to have accomplished the restoration work in Japan of all their swords in Sashikomi.

 

From my own experience. A lot of 21 swords sent to a Japanese middleman many years ago were classified as following: 2 swords ordinary polish, 17 better polish and 2 best polish, with the remark, because they were extremely fine in make.

 

The Sashikomi and Hadori issue is treated in-depth in the following articles:

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/arti ... eaning.pdf Polishing and Conservation of the Japanese Sword by Guido Schiller

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/arti ... Essays.pdf The World of the Togishi by Jon Bowhay

 

Eric

[Curran]

I would mostly agree with Mr. Trotter.

 

George, for certain swords nothing is more flashy than a well done sashikomi.

But then again, who does a proper sashikomi polish these days?

 

Saw an Ichimonji in perfect sashikomi at the NBTHK museum one time. In a display all by itself to allow for 360 degrees of study. Beauty of it totally floored me.

[george trotter]

Hi Curran, I appreciate your comments....you are right of course, exceptions always exist.

I must add to my previous comments (even at the risk of being dogmatic) that I also have seen fine blades in hadori, both at the NBTHK, in museums and privately. I remember the excitement of seeing, for example, a Kiyomaro at an renowned author's house in Japan in 1980 and in the same year a very fine Tsuda, Echizen no Kami Sukehiro...both in hadori which was becoming common then...I am sorry to say, that for me, it was a "ho-hum" moment with each (heresy I hear some say). As you say, hadori is practically universal now. I think perhaps the "shock' I experienced then, and again recently on seeing some previously known sashikomi polished swords again in hand as hadori, stems from my period of collecting ... the fact is that with very few exceptions, swords I enjoyed in the 1970 - 1985 period were still in sashikomi polish from the period to 1945. I "grew up" with sashikomi. This is why hadori came as such a retrograde step IMHO. I may add, that by observing on swords of all ages almost exclusively sashikomi polish , it was obvious that the taste of the sword world polishing ethic up to 1945 was firmly sashikomi...that it really was the "traditional taste" in polish from say 1800-1945. Hadori is, it appears, the reflection of post-war "sword as art" phenomenon and while "popular", it is in my opinion inferior to the sashikomi (unless a hamon is of such a type as to be only "do-able" in hadori). But of course...it is up to the individual as to what they appreciate, and order for their swords.

 

But this leads to a philosophical question about what to order...it has been stated very firmly by some members in the past, that as we members (being untrained) are so ignorant in matters of polish that it would be presumptuous of us to tell an experienced polisher what type of polish we want for our sword...he alone must decide...we just say thank you and pay the bill. Well...what about all those swords that were judged and polished in sashikomi up to 1945 that are now hadori? Were all the previous polishers such as Honami and Fujishiro wrong?...if sashikomi was appropriate for a sword between 1800-1945, as adjudged by such polishers as named, why would it be inappropriate now? I think this explodes the position that the type of polish is a "technical" question, too complex for the untrained. Personally, I think it is appropriate to repolish a sashikomi as a sashikomi and to say so if that is what is wanted...don't be afraid to say what you want is my advice.

Regards

rantin' and ravin' old geezer,

George.

[Curran]

it has been stated very firmly by some members in the past, that as we members (being untrained) are so ignorant in matters of polish that it would be presumptuous of us to tell an experienced polisher what type of polish we want for our sword...he alone must decide...we just say thank you and pay the bill.

 

I think that is the first time I have ever used a "clapper". Thank you for skewering that which I was thinking but did not put down. You wrote it better than I could.

 

A Japanese polisher said to me this line once, but privately said he just went for hadori as it is easier, unless the sword absolutely demanded sashikomi.....

These are not my words. His words. Everybody can swing for my head now. And I believe the polisher would deny it in any public forum, or pull a Ronald Reagan "I cannot recall". His word against mine, I think most would take his word. I'm just another gaijin playing outside my ethnos.

 

I am of the opinion some swords are better in hadori, but truly skilled sashikomi seems to be more and more rare to have done. I can only recall 1 sword that was in old sashikomi that went for polish and came back hadori. Wow, what an anticlimax to see it later. Owner felt the same, and it went back for sashikomi. I regret all the loss of metal on such an old sword.

 

_____________________________________

 

As for age, it expands and compresses. I've aged 25 years in the past 5 (not a good thing), yet am relatively young for this hobby. Only have 20+ years, of which only 10+ have been actively collecting. But much seems to have changed in the last 10. I believe it was yesterday I was remembering reading Jim Kurrash's website for the first time. What a firecracker in a tin can he could be, but I read everything he wrote and am very sorry he is gone. That makes me feel very old at 37.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Kesho vs Sashikomi, comments; keep in mind that Japanese sword polishing is constantly evolving, changing, it is an art form in motion for all practical purposes. At no time previously have polishers been able to bring out such depth and detail of the sword's steel as much as it is being drawn out by some of today's polishers. This presents difficulties and dilemma for the polisher when it comes to presenting the best of the sword, while at the same time obscuring those features which would be best left obscured. Very few swords are good enough to the point of where incredible detail can be brought out by today's standards, while using an unmasked sashikomi finish. So, it's either highlight the hamon and don't bring out the fine detail or else the flaws come out too, or it's bring out all the fine detail while masking the flaws. Take your pick.

But, of course most people want it all and that's fine, to which the answer is simply go out and buy that quarter million dollar blade, what are you waiting for.

 

For those that are willing to bend and don't have bottomless pockets, there is the alternative of finding and patiently waiting for a top notch polisher. A polisher that can offer balance by only using as much hadori as needed while following the hamon very closely, and at the same time bringing out the best of the steel and all of its fine detail.

[watsonmil]

Dear Franco,

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Hadori polish is wonderful for hiding flaws, .... Sashikomi brings out all detail INCLUDING flaws ( if any ). Most swords were built as weapons NOT as art objects. It becomes a synonom for turning a sows ear into a silk purse. Everyone wants a Juyo blade, .... even if the sword is tired, contains hagiri, is o-surage. The only way to give them ( the collector ) their dream is to paint the bloody thing. If a woman needs make up to the point that you cannot sleep with her unless she is plastered in makeup, .... well then .. either don't marry her, .... or find some other atribute she may possess that offsets the wrinkles. You are right there are VERY FEW swords that are good enough to stand on their own if we view the Samurai Sword as STRICKLY an ART OBJECT. Most were never intended to be ART, ... they were designed as weapons. Art Object is a bloody sales pitch of a cleverly designed Japanese sales gimic to over value what is nothing more than albeit a perfected killing machine. I consider most all beautiful whether flawed or not. I want to see exactly what the smith produced, ... not what someone else thinks they wanted the smith to produce. If by some chance one has a very fine flawless blade, .... then by God make sure you see all that the smith intended you to see. If you do not own a flawless blade then don't mask it, ... but enjoy it for what it is. Even the worst blades have study potential if you can at least see the workings. Perhaps my writing does not convey my love for the Japanese Sword in a way that I would like it understood, ... but it is never the less sincere. Hadori is new, Sashikomi is old style, .... may I remind everyone reading this that little that is new is better than the old, ... it takes only a moment to look around our screwed up world to see where NEW has gotten us. My motto has always been .... if it ain't broke don't fix it ! .... Ron Watson

[bdgrange]

Eric is also a very nice person.

Good to see his success.

 

Bill delagrange

[David Flynn]

Eric, what was the orginisation in Oz you mention. I have been collecting in Oz for about 20yrs and have never heard of this.

[sanjuro]

Traditionalists All.

 

This thread seems to have drawn out the traditionalists among us, and I for one would proudly add my name to that list. My particular Nihonto fetish is tachi. A sashikomi polish is therefore really the only alternative for a sword that was born for battle. If I have a sword polished, then I want to see what the smith put into that blade, not some pretty conception of what is considered politically correct by the general sword community. It has been argued that the hadori polish is a cosmetic polish only, and since it was invented after the sword ceased to be a weapon for effective slaughter and mysteriously morphed into an art object, then it is a misrepresentation of the true nature of the blade. As far as that goes, it is true. The truth however, goes further in as much as the modern collector has been brainwashed primarily by both Japanese and American Nihonto organisations to expect and only accept packaged, polished and papered swords as exclusively acceptable for collecting. The Hadori polish produces such swords to satisfy a created demand.

Polishing is necessary yes. Bear in mind however, that you are grinding away at the very history of the individual blade itself, then in the case of the Hadori polish, hiding the irregularities which in the process of creating the blade, the smith put into the steel. All in the name of owning a sword which 'appears' to be perfect in the modern conception of the sword as an art object, and yet has had its surface and its individuality stripped from it. We are literally grinding away the history of the samurai a millimeter at a time to satisfy a market for packaged swords.

Many blades simply shouldnt be messed with, but rather left as the centuries have made them, their polish perhaps marred, but their history intact. From these we may learn. The truth and beauty of a blade lies in its honesty. There are no lessons to be learned if the truth hides beneath a mask.

 

Another old geezer ranting

[cabowen]

I think this thread has now officially gone off road....

 

What is traditional? As someone has mentioned, the polishing art has evolved through time. Sashikomi as it is known now is but one stage in the continuum, and a later one at that. It certainly evolved as a way to show the beauty within the blade and had little practical benefit. In 100 years people will probably be calling hadori traditional...

 

Blade making itself evolved...When something is in a constant state of evolution, where exactly do you demarcate traditional? Why not call the 13th century polish traditional?

[watsonmil]

Dear Chris,

You say .... " I think this thread has now officially gone off road.... " ... Perhaps you would like to start a new thread ??

 

You say .... " What is traditional? As someone has mentioned, the polishing art has evolved through time. Sashikomi as it is known now is but one stage in the continuum, and a later one at that. It certainly evolved as a way to show the beauty within the blade and had little practical benefit. In 100 years people will probably be calling hadori traditional... " ... Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with the approximate date that Sashikomi polish was introduced ?? ... We all know the time frame for the introduction of Hadori !

 

It is well documented that the appreciation of fine swords goes back many hundreds of years, ... I quote one example ...

" Hideyoshi presented Ieyasu in return with the Tea-jar Shirakumo ( White Cloud ), a short sword by Masamune, and a long one by Miyoshi Go " .... this in 1586 .... I doubt this was just a " ground sharp " polish.

 

You say .... " Blade making itself evolved...When something is in a constant state of evolution, where exactly do you demarcate traditional? Why not call the 13th century polish traditional " ... Just because you do not agree with the fact that some of us do not like the Hadori polish is no reason to belittle. ... Perhaps I am reading you wrong, .... but I do not think so.

But then again I am not a sword dealer or polisher, .... so what should I know ! ....... Ron Watson

[george trotter]

Hi all...just to re-iterate...I said that virtually all swords up to the surrender in 1945 were in sashikomi...these are the swords that I grew up with and consequently, it was a shock to see the "intrusion" (IMHO) of hadori since then. I said hadori was inferior...but, this is just my opinion, biased I suppose by the joy of seeing so many sashikomi in my early days. So much so do I think sashikomi superior, that I would rather keep a sword in "shabby" sashikomi than risk change by getting it re-polished...but, if I did re-polish I would insist on sashikomi (if I could find a polisher). I do know that hadori is just another progression along the line of polish developments, just as sashikomi was innovative over what came before it...I don't argue with that...what I raised as a philosophical issue was that IMHO it is wrong/incorrect for owners to be told by certain "knowledgeable", quite stridently, that he/she has no right to nominate what preference for polish is to be fulfilled on their own sword! (reminds me of those who only like art that art critics say are likeable!). Those who prefer hadori can have it and I agree, some hamon look better in hadori....but shouldn't it be the owner's choice? The comment/advice in the past by a certain "knowledgeable" that only the polisher can decide on the polish is unacceptable to me, especially when the polisher is saying (according to the "knowledgeable") that hadori is technically right for a sword that only a generation or so before was classed, passed and polished in sashikomi by polishers such as the Honami and Fujishiro. It doesn't follow in logic...so I am saying that owners should use their own judgement...if their sword has the remains of a good sashikomi polish and they like it...why simply accept being "told" that it will be done in hadori?...say what you want.

Just my view...and let's keep it nice...(calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean...)

Regards,

George.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, I think the process of polishing is being oversimplified in many ways in this discussion and not enough credit is being given to polishers and the polishing process, and that is perhaps why Chris stated this discussion has gone somewhat awry. Regardless of personal likes or dislikes, or what anyone thinks is right or wrong historically, a trained polisher is doing what is best for the sword based upon teachings that have been handed down through generations of polishers. What was meant through the term evolution in a previous post is that the polisher is forever working to improve their skill and techniques to bring out the very best in the sword. If you learn to understand nothing else about polishing, at least try to understand the concept of kantei as it applies to the polishing process before making your personal judgments.

[sanjuro]

Franco.

 

I hear what you are saying. However, it depends on what your definition of 'the very best in a sword' is. The very best it can look with all the faults hidden and a possibly false painted temperline added, or alternatively the very best it can be without the cosmetic masking of faults. The hiding of faults doesnt make the sword any better, it just prevents the viewer from seeing the sword for what it really is.

I realise the skill and knowledge that goes into the polishing of a sword, but cosmetic enhancement is only a device whereby the sword can be made to look better than it really is. I think this is perhaps what is being said among other things, rather than any criticism of the togishi or their expertise, methods or the degree of knowledge required to polish a sword.

[Eric H]

Eric, what was the orginisation in Oz you mention. I have been collecting in Oz for about 20yrs and have never heard of this.

All the swords on display in the Art Gallery of New South Wales are in Sashikomi Polish. The polisher is Mukansa level and the very best quality polish available. He has been asked not to do Hadori. This is our preference. See the swords at... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4666

written by Chishiki

 

Eric

[David Flynn]

Eric, the article states, that these swords are from private collectors and doesn't mention an orginisation.

[hybridfiat]

Does the polisher have a name? Im in the same boat as many small collectors that I have a couple of swords that are pleasing but in very old or poor polish but have to weigh all the factors. I know that one has a very interesting hamon below the surface scratches some donkey left after trying to sharpen it.

 

1. Cost. Is the blade worth the $2000+ to have it polished

3. Who to ask

4. Would the blade benefit from a polish or is it as good as it gets.

5. Should I have it polished as some think it is irresponsible because every polish reduces it's life.

[george trotter]

Regardless of personal likes or dislikes, or what anyone thinks is right or wrong historically, a trained polisher is doing what is best for the sword based upon teachings that have been handed down through generations of polishers.

 

I think this quote above is a good illustration of the problem that has been highlighted...how can these polishers be doing what is "best" for the blade by polishing them in hadori when the generations from whom they descend were also doing what was "best" for these same blades by polishing them in sashikomi?...what is meant by "best" in this case? Both believe they are doing their best and both believe that their style of polish was/is best for the blades entrusted to them. You see the problem? Who says what is best...and what IS best?...who decides who is "right"?

 

I also think this topic has value and is worth discussing rationally...IMHO it has not gone awry.

Regards,

George

[Eric H]

Hi all...just to re-iterate...I said that virtually all swords up to the surrender in 1945 were in sashikomi...these are the swords that I grew up with and consequently, it was a shock to see the "intrusion" (IMHO) of hadori since then

Well, the following extract of Guido Schillers article is more precise:

 

A common misconception is that all swords polished until the early Meiji period were done in Sashikomi, and that Hadori was developed after the electric light bulb was introduced to Japan. This is only partially true.

Although Sashikomi is indeed the earlier form of (final) polishing, Hadori was used at least from the mid-Edo period on according to old records, and possibly even earlier. However, the care that is exercised in doing Hadori as we know it now, and the level of whitening of the Hamon / Hataraki, as well as the degree of darkening of the Jihada trough Nugui, is something that came with the advent of the light bulb. Electricity didn't only enable the polisher to work with a constant, bright source of light, but makes it easier to see the various Hataraki clearly, and the Honami family responded to the strong call of connoisseurs to refine their techniques in accordance with the improved conditions of appreciating swords.

I dare to say that in 9 out of 10 swords Hadori will help to appreciate the finer details of the sword. This is also the point where the Togishi changes from a mere craftsman to an artist who "interprets" a certain sword, much like a conductor of classical music. Why, then, prefer some collectors, especially non-Japanese, Sashikomi?

 

Furthermore "A Polisher's Experience" is well documented by Polisher Jon Bowhay himself.

 

Eric

[george trotter]

A good addition to the discussion Eric...

while hadori or a form of hadori may well be as early as the mid Edo, I can say personally, that of all the swords i have handled of the koto/shinto/shinshinto/Meiji/Taisho eras, only a very few in late Meiji and in Taisho were what one would classify as close to today's hadori, and these tended to be in blades with medium/wide sugu based hamon with weak nioiguchi.

In WWII gendaito I can only recall one blade with 1942 dated hadori.

My experience (and this is what I have been talking about) is that in my collecting experience, virtually no blades had hadori before 1945, although "some" did. For me, it is a post-war feature...since almost all swords are now hadori, I suppose there is no way to test whether any are mid-Edo hadori still surviving now?

While Guido Schiller has been quoted here, I'd still be interested in hearing what your personal observations have been Eric. What have you observed over time?

Regards,

George.

[cabowen]

Dear Chris,

You say .... " I think this thread has now officially gone off road.... " ... Perhaps you would like to start a new thread ??

 

I say this thread has gone off topic because the original discussion concerned the quality (or lack thereof) of the polish on the original poster's swords. It has become a debate over the merits of sashikomi vs kesho polish. It should be moved to a new topic.....

 

 

You say .... " What is traditional? As someone has mentioned, the polishing art has evolved through time. Sashikomi as it is known now is but one stage in the continuum, and a later one at that. It certainly evolved as a way to show the beauty within the blade and had little practical benefit. In 100 years people will probably be calling hadori traditional... " ... Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with the approximate date that Sashikomi polish was introduced ?? ... We all know the time frame for the introduction of Hadori !

 

I will refer you to several sources which discuss this topic-two have been mentioned on this board already-essays by Jon Bowhay and Guido Schiller (excuse me if I have mis-spelled anyone's name). Clearly the polishing art did not spring forth fully developed. Early efforts where much more about sharpening and less about exposing jihada and yakiba. Of this there can be little doubt. As stated, it has been an evolutionary process. There is no exact date when suddenly every togi across the land hit on the same process and it was decreed that on that day sashikomi shiage was born.....Same with hadori. It did not suddenly and spontaneously appear and has been around in one way or another for a long time.

 

 

It is well documented that the appreciation of fine swords goes back many hundreds of years, ... I quote one example ...

" Hideyoshi presented Ieyasu in return with the Tea-jar Shirakumo ( White Cloud ), a short sword by Masamune, and a long one by Miyoshi Go " .... this in 1586 .... I doubt this was just a " ground sharp " polish.

 

No argument that swords have been appreciated for a long time. And no doubt that as the Muromachi period closed, polishing was quite developed.....and still developing...

 

 

You say .... " Blade making itself evolved...When something is in a constant state of evolution, where exactly do you demarcate traditional? Why not call the 13th century polish traditional " ... Just because you do not agree with the fact that some of us do not like the Hadori polish is no reason to belittle. ... Perhaps I am reading you wrong, .... but I do not think so.

But then again I am not a sword dealer or polisher, .... so what should I know ! ....... Ron Watson

 

I am not belittling anyone. There is nothing personal in the argument I make and there is no arguing with simple personal preference. What I am pointing out is the fault in logic when standing on "tradition" in support of sashikomi as superior or preferential to hadori. Polishing has been a dynamic, not static, process.

[cabowen]

...how can these polishers be doing what is "best" for the blade by polishing them in hadori when the generations from whom they descend were also doing what was "best" for these same blades by polishing them in sashikomi?...what is meant by "best" in this case? Both believe they are doing their best and both believe that their style of polish was/is best for the blades entrusted to them. You see the problem? Who says what is best...and what IS best?...who decides who is "right"?

 

I also think this topic has value and is worth discussing rationally...IMHO it has not gone awry.

Regards,

George

 

It is relative, not absolute. Dynamic, not static. Each generation does their "best" based on the state of the art and knowledge base at each point in time.

 

It is subjective. It is art, after all. There are no absolutes that everyone will agree on. What is today's trash may be tomorrow's treasure...

 

That said, when hiring a togi-shi, most are relying on his years of training and expertise. His aesthetic sensibilities are part of the package. There are few people reading this with the depth of knowledge and expertise possessed by a professional togi-shi. Personally, I have always found it beneficial to defer to such expertise. If I do not trust my togi's judgment as to shiage style, perhaps I need to question my selection of togi-shi. It is, after all, a matter of trust. And what are we paying for, after all? Expertise....

 

To state once again, sashi-komi has been preferred for use on blades with a tight habuchi, such as those in the Bizen-den. When the habuchi is not distinct, such as in Soshu-den, hadori has been preferred. To say that one style fits all is probably a bit dogmatic, don't you think?...

[cabowen]

Franco.

 

I hear what you are saying. However, it depends on what your definition of 'the very best in a sword' is. The very best it can look with all the faults hidden and a possibly false painted temperline added, or alternatively the very best it can be without the cosmetic masking of faults. The hiding of faults doesnt make the sword any better, it just prevents the viewer from seeing the sword for what it really is.

I realise the skill and knowledge that goes into the polishing of a sword, but cosmetic enhancement is only a device whereby the sword can be made to look better than it really is. I think this is perhaps what is being said among other things, rather than any criticism of the togishi or their expertise, methods or the degree of knowledge required to polish a sword.

 

Your argument is interesting and more defensible than the prior "traditional" argument posed. However, there are a few counter points that can be made...

 

First of all, we should define faults. No togi-shi can successfully mask fukure, ware, etc. from a knowledgeable eye. The "faults" a good togi-shi is working on are more in the way of cloudy hada or a dim hamon. The art is in subtleties. Highlighting, downplaying, accentuating, etc. It is all still there, it is simply how much attention is drawn to the ha, the jitetsu, etc. There are no silk purses being made of sow's ears. A lot of this would go right over the head of the majority in the West because, simply put, most in the West do not have the knowledge and experience to appreciate much of the subtlety involved, nor do they know how to view the blade correctly.

 

The togi-shi's job is to make the sword look its best. That of course is subjective and hangs on the aesthetic structure built over time on the cultural foundation that is Japan....but in the end, that is the secondary purpose. Lacking that, a blade needs only to be sharp....

 

Good hadori is not a "painted in hamon". It is translucent and when the sword is viewed properly, all the hataraki will jump out. The hada is more observable in a hadori finish, giving you the best of both worlds. A big part of the problem is that it is easy for a second class "togi" to do a "hadori" finish, and they do look painted on... I have found that most in the West who knock hadori shiage have never seen it done by a first rate togi-shi. I use to feel the same way until I spent a weekend with several smiths and several togi-shi, surrounded by several dozen blades in both styles of polish. I listened to all the debate and had examples in hand to study. After seeing many first rate examples and being taught how to look at the blades correctly, I came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases....

[george trotter]

Good hadori is not a "painted in hamon". It is translucent and when the sword is viewed properly, all the hataraki will jump out. The hada is more observable in a hadori finish, giving you the best of both worlds. A big part of the problem is that it is easy for a second class "togi" to do a "hadori" finish, and they do look painted on... I have found that most in the West who knock hadori shiage have never seen it done by a first rate togi-shi. I use to feel the same way until I spent a weekend with several smiths and several togi-shi, surrounded by several dozen blades in both styles of polish. I listened to all the debate and had examples in hand to study. After seeing many first rate examples and being taught how to look at the blades correctly, I came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases....

 

Chris, I respect your breadth of experience here and your years of study and observation so I will refrain from further comment...I suppose it is emminently possible that I have seen mostly second class togishi work as you mention, and also I am surely not properly trained to look at hadori...but as an incorrigible geezer of the sashikomi, I shudder to see you write that even when you were surrounded by "blades in both types of polish", you "...came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases"...

What has happend to the world

Warm regards (in spite of your depravity)

George....(calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean...)

[cabowen]

Chris, I respect your breadth of experience here and your years of study and observation so I will refrain from further comment...I suppose it is emminently possible that I have seen mostly second class togishi work as you mention, and also I am surely not properly trained to look at hadori...but as an incorrigible geezer of the sashikomi, I shudder to see you write that even when you were surrounded by "blades in both types of polish", you "...came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases"...

 

It may also be that your artistic sensibilities point you in the direction of sashi-komi....as I said, it is subjective and personal....everyone is entitled to their preference as far as I can tell...

 

What has happend to the world

Warm regards (in spite of your depravity)

George....(calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean...)

 

What indeed!

 

What needs to be done is to have an exhibit sometime with good and bad examples of both and to lead a directed study to illuminate the finer points of a good polish. Perhaps at our next show...It is always better to debate when everyone has the same baseline.....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

 

A question if I may, to clarify the comparative destructive attributes of both styles of polish. It has been observed either in this or another related thread that the more modern Hadori style of polish removes a greater amount of material than the equivalent Sashikomi polish. Is this factual? If so, given that all blades are different of course, supposing two similar blades are involved, how much greater in general terms is the amount of material removed, in one as opposed to the other?