Unusual hamadashi tsuba

[pcfarrar]

A friend recently purchased a tanto and it came with a very unusual hamadashi tsuba.

 

They tsuba breaks down into pieces and underneath is a rusty old iron tsuba. It seems quite well made and the whole thing clips together tightly.

 

I think a previous owner must have gone to quite some expense to have this done. Anyone have any thoughts on why they would try to preserve this old tsuba? Seems like it would have been a lot easier to have just made a new tsuba.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[Toryu2020]

Peter -

since the original tsuba seems to have been greatly altered, I would posit that this was not to preserve the old piece but rather an inexpensive base to build the new tsuba on. In other words, the man was rich in soft metals but not so much iron so converted an old tsuba into the base on which to build his new work. All speculation of course...

-t

[Brian]

Or the old iron one could have had sentimental value...maybe passed down through the family?

Of course it is all conjecture, but an interesting tsuba indeed.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

I tend to agree that the iron tsuba may have had some significance to the original owner. There is a lot of careful craftsmanship in the cladding of the iron base, that would have been an expensive alternative to making a new tsuba in soft metal.

An intriguing piece. I would be very tempted to research its provenance if at all possible.

[pcfarrar]

The entire koshirae of the tanto is good and even the seppa have been foiled with shakudo.

 

[reinhard]

Using the same peculiar cherry-blossom punch for seki-gane and seppa is.....peculiar. Furthermore there seem to be traces of black paint on the seppa. Rokusho (chemical agent used for turning shakudo's natural color into black) does not leave traces like these on copper when handled professionally.

 

reinhard

 

just one day from now my talk of today will be the talk of yesterday...or something like that. I can't remember precisely, but the Chinese fortune cookie tasted great.

[Curran]

"just one day from now my talk of today will be the talk of yesterday...or something like that. I can't remember precisely, but the Chinese fortune cookie tasted great."

 

My diet is heavy on fortune cookies.

[reinhard]

I forgot: What about this very poor photo-shop job, adding a seki-gane where there is none? (see the part within the frame and compare it with other examples from the same post). - Oh, and by the way, the tsuka-ito looks quite new and was wrapped by an amateur. Diamond-shapes are beyond Japanese professionalism.

 

reinhard

 

two days from now tomorrow will be history...? Are there some more cookies?

[Toryu2020]

Rheinhard -

Isn't that the second seppa peeking out from the back?

-t

[Lee Bray]

It's not the seppa, it's the back of the copper plate still in position on the tsuba...it's not photoshop.

The nakago ana on the iron base is obviously larger than the nakago ana on the copper plate.

 

Reinhard - with respect, I've seen work of less than fantastic quality come out of Japan.

 

Edit - Further 'evidence' that it's not photoshop - check the 2nd and 3rd pics of the whole tsuba.

The 2nd pic, the iron nakago ana is flush with the copper plates either side.

The 3rd pic, the iron nakago ana is offset from the copper plates.

The seki-gane also shows that the mounted sword is offset to one side of the iron tsuba base.

Looks to me like a yoroi-doshi tanto tsuba that's been reworked for a slimmer tanto.

[reinhard]

Isn't that the second seppa peeking out from the back?

 

Thomas, it is definitely not a seppa. It could be the soft-metal plate covering the back-side of the tsuba, but then: why putting it there while taking this picture and why is it of exactly the same color and structure like the seki-gane? Maybe this is just a rare coincidence, but even if it is: adding all features and considering the very poor workmanship of most parts of this koshirae, the idea of this tsuba being an improved heirloom is quite far-fetched to say it politely. I can't imagine you are you considering this, are you?

 

reinhard

 

edit: Lee may be right. I was still writing while he had posted already. Nevertheless I can't see any evidence for this "enriched" tsuba being a treasured heirloom. Overall quality of all parts is just too bad.

 

reinhard

[Toryu2020]

Rheinhard -

I believe you can see it in the first three photos and from different angles - it is the back plate, not a seppa and not I think photo-shop foolery. I do not as I said earlier, believe this was put together to preserve the iron tsuba inside. The plate does not appear that old, there is no signature, and the original has been too radically altered for this to have been "a preservative"

mho...

-t

[Brian]

Considering no-one was claiming this is a valuable or exceptionally skillful tsuba, I am not quite sure what is trying to be proven here.

As Peter posted, it is just unusual and out of the ordinary. Who said it is improved Reinhard?

I agree that it may be for any number of reasons, but to me it is just as likely that the owner wanted to keep the original in some way. Doesn't mean it was a valuable one..maybe he had it in his pocket the first time he "got lucky" or maybe he won the lottery while holding it. :?

A million different theories...none of which involve it being a priceless treasure.

 

Brian

[Jean]

A good one, incredible work (gold inlay)

[reinhard]

There seems to be some confusion here:

 

Brian, you said: "...the old iron once could have had a sentimental value....maybe passed down through the family."

My interpretation of this statement was (is) like this: Parts of the koshirae were built in order to preserve this tsuba incorporating family history, sentimental values or the like.

 

Thomas, can we agree to this: seppa are the small plates adjacent to fuchi and habaki respectively. Plates covering large areas of the tsuba in between are to be named/mentioned separately in order to prevent confusion.

 

Apart from this, trying to return to the tsuba in question and wondering myself what I'm doing here anyway, I'd like to state: This kind of koshirae (including the treatment of the tsuba) does not suit basic principles of workmanship predating Meiji-period. In fact, the whole assembly looks like so many pieces I've seen, dating from Taisho and early Showa-period: low class objects assembled in a careless way. Some of them "modified" even later.

 

There have been many misunderstandings and misinterpretations on NMB as far as koshirae are concerned. In order to get a review and to argue on common ground, I strongly recommend this book (including Meiji-period koshirae) for a starter:

 

reinhard

[bridgeofdreams]

Reinhard,

 

Well said.

 

In case anyone is wondering where to find a copy of this wonderful book ...

 

Craig

[Toryu2020]

Rheinhard -

I am not sure we are "arguing". I don't see this as anything special, not to take anything away from the koshirae, it all appears to be Bakumatsu work. The iron in the core tsuba shows a lot of red rust and does not appear all that old to my eye. It is a neat item but also not the most ingenious thing I have seen done with kodogu. In the end I like it and the koshirae overall.

 

As it happens I do have the National Museum book you mention and you are right the item in question is the other half of the tsuba and not a seppa. You can clearly see it in the photos peeking out from different angles but it does not appear in the photos where the back has been separated to show all the constituent parts.

 

In the end I'll repeat what I think I tried to say earlier, the iron core clearly looks to have been a tsuba at some point - it was a convenient piece of metal for the artist to build his new tsuba upon.

my opinion only...

-t

[reinhard]

Thomas,

 

We probably agree in most points except for it's being a bakumatsu-period work. Overall quality of this koshirae is just not up to minimal standards of that time. Even objects for everyday use were made more carefully during Tokugawa-period; not to speak of samurai's most valuable possession. - Anyway, I didn't mean to "argue". I'm sorry if my replies were understood as a kind of "argument". This particular tsuba is not worth it.

 

reinhard

[IanB]

As someone who has both handled this sword and knows Peter and the sword's owner, I am saddened for both of them about the way this thread has developed. Peter's initial post was simply to show the members of the Board what is a quite unusual tsuba. No, it is not superb quality, nor did he make that claim only that it was interesting - which it is. The assertion that Peter tried to mislead by adding spurious seki-gane using photoshop beggars belief and is totally unwarranted. It is quite clear that the photograph reproduced to make this absurd claim shows the tsuba with that copper-gilt insert fitted with these liners in place on the underside. There then follows various comments about the quality of the koshirae that in my opinion are totally unjustified. The scabbard is better lacquered and finished than many Edo period swords I have seen. Yes, it does seem to have been rebound, but so have many swords today - silk has a very finite life, especially if it has been exposed to light. Nobody claimed it had been done in Japan, but this was raised as yet another denigrating comment. Whilst it is only proper that members who ask for opinions about an object should be told the truth, there are ways of doing it. Falling back on the old cry that we are wasting our time studying, collecting or owning anything that is not 'the very best' is a argument that excludes the greater proportion of Nihonto and collectors. We do not all have infinitely deep pockets and I am sure that the majority of Board members feel both proud and fortunate to own what we do.

What has not been said during this thread is that the kurigata, and probably the habaki, were at one time foil covered like the seppa but appear to have been stripped because they were damaged. Another point that has not been raised, but is very obvious, is that the tsuba was designed for some form of inserts - simply look at the formation of the rim and its depth in relation to the surface of the plate. It is obvious that the present configuration is not the original because of the shape and size of the nakago ana. However, somebody thought it worth re-using but as Brian has said we will never know why.

Ian Bottomley

[pcfarrar]

This koshirae recently passed shinsa in Japan, I will try and post the paper when it returns. I believe they dated it to the edo period.

 

The blade came back as a Koto Bungo smith and was deemed worthy of higher level papers. So all in all a good result.