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Hi Guys,

 

I've just joined. I was a touring rock musician which enabled me to travel the world and be a Nihonto collector since 1981, but two unforeseen events forced the sale of two collections I had established. The first collection was about 80 swords, though at one stage I had 102. THe second collection was only five swords, as I had learned quality over quantity.

 

I have lived in Japan twice, been taken into the catacombs of the National Museum at Ueno Park by Nobuo Ogasawara, held Okada Giri and a superb Masamune katana, met Willis Hawley (a wonderful gentleman) in his Hollywood mansion before his unfortunate but inevitable death, and now that I am recovered from a severe car accident that nearly took my own life (and forced the sale of the second collection)... I'm back at swords. What is it with these things? I first remember playing The Samurai with a very fine wooden long-bow I had broken in half to be a make-shift katana.

 

It seems I can't live without a sword. I have felt empty since I sold my last, very fine Handachi katana (mumei, exceptionally fine work, circa 14th-15th C).

 

Just a background. I live at the bottom of the world, Mornington Peninsula, Victoria, Australia. Not much life below me but found some wonderful swords in Tasmania (Errol Flynn's home-the DEEP south), including a genuine Nagasone Okisato Nyudo Kotetsu, with cutting test by Yamano Kuemon Nagahisa, an Echizen Masanori, etc.

 

So that is a background, from a time when one could find swords in abundance and the mistakes weren't too expensive. My current concern is the misuse of eBay, which could be a wonderful way for us to buy and sell swords without traders giving us a pittance for our prizes and selling them for 300% mark up, only to be discovered years later when the sword crosses ones path again.

 

I have written eBay many times, informing them that some sellers they have listed as Power Sellers, are crooks selling Chinese forgeries, or semi-forgeries. I am thinking of offering my services to run through the listings every week to just somehow mark "Junk" next to the vast majority that are.

 

I thought some pressure from this group might help us all create an honest seller/buyer's market on eBay without undisclosed massive mark-ups.

 

Thoughts?

 

Simon Binks

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Hi Simon, Good you have recovered from your accident. You were with Australian Crawl, eh? I wish you all the luck trying to clean up the nihonto section of e-bay. It is just that they do not care. The more sales they have the greater the revenue and it doesn't matter if it was junk or not. John

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Welcome aboard Simon. From a fellow Aussie and collector, yes ebay is frustrating. As stated, ebay doesn't seem to care about fakes and many "Newbies", get stung.

To the trained eye though, one becomes used to the fakes and is able to scroll trough pretty quick. Unfortunately, we have people that buy these chinese and other copies, posting on this board and asking for comments. Some get put off, others learn and progress.

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Oh Simon, if only you could do that to eBay. They talk a lot about honesty and integrity and even ran a campaign to get their buyers to sign up to stop counterfeit goods, but do absolutely nothing to stop the blatant fakes from China. The counterfeit goods they were worried about were of course things like perfumes, handbags and such, produced by big-name companies with powerful lawyers - we small timers don't even count in their scheme of things. What I would like is a simple filter that allowed anything being sold from China to be blocked. I wouldn't mind ploughing through the Chinese junk, but as I have already mentioned elsewhere, we here in the UK cannot even see knives or swords on eBay UK.

Ian Bottomley

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What I would like is a simple filter that allowed anything being sold from China to be blocked.

Ian Bottomley

 

What, so I have to sell through a filter just because I'm in China?

Thanks. :D

 

I'm sure you can see where this could lead so let's not go there.

Suffice to say we should all follow caveat emptor; realise that there are fake swords in every country(though admittedly their origin is generally China) and that hobbling a nation because of a few bad eggs is not the done thing.

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Suffice to say we should all follow caveat emptor; realise that there are fake swords in every country(though admittedly their origin is generally China) and that hobbling a nation because of a few bad eggs is not the done thing.

I just searched all of ebay for "Japanese sword" and got 4,579 hits. Next I did the same search but specified that the item be located in China: 2,068 hits. Nearly half the Japanese swords on ebay are being sold out of China and 99.9% of that half are fake.

Sorry Lee, but I wish ebay would let me search excluding items located in China. This isn't a few bad eggs; it's an industry.

Grey

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Yes, you're right and I tend to agree.

I just find it vexing to be indirectly part of it. I've never even bothered trying to sell items on ebay for this reason. Shame, as I'm getting to the point where I want to sell some of my modest collection and nihonto don't seem to sell well on forums, especially with the lower quality I'll be offering.

 

It also vexes me as I see it everyday here in the streets and there is very little done about it. Few locals seem to care that China's reputation is one of shoddy goods and fake items which is a shame as it has much more to offer. But this is unrelated to the topic and just my take on it.

 

On topic - I imagine the cost to ebay of hiring 'experts' for each of the plethora of items they sell would be extreme. I can't see them accepting independent authorities on spurious items as it would be far too ambiguous for their rules. They couldn't very well have a 'guaranteed no fake sword' auction and a 'take your chance Rolex' auction.

Then weigh the expense, logistics and legalities of the above against the huge revenue that said sales are generating...

With the amount of money involved, you can bet ebay's lawyers will be doing everything they can to stay a gnat's whisker within the law. Give or take a bit. Buy maybe I'm just too cynical.

 

I think the idea of a group is great but I also think it will always be confined to the likes of the ebay section of this forum.

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Well, e-bay made stupid restrictions about edged weapons in UK. They could do the same for Chinese. Now they flood all e-bay with fakes. If to choose "modern Japanese swords" you will find 90% of sells from China.

 

However, i'm afraid it would be only temporary - even now some smart guy sells fakes and location indicated is Belarus(!! guess he doesn't know anything about this country, especially regulations regarding sales of edged weapons) :steamed:

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Sorry but it is time for delirium :

 

I don't know why they Have a warning against us poor Aussies,. :D

 

Because they obviously don't know Cate Blanchett or Nicole Kidman :lol: Sorry I can't chose between them

 

Nearly half the Japanese swords on ebay are being sold out of China and 99.9% of that half are fake.

 

Grey, have you ever found the genuine O,1%?

 

That is the reason why I don't buy on e-bay (I mean serious object)

 

The best is seldom on e-bay. Makes me think of a flea market where some people think they can buy for a buck something worth thousand while others think they can cheat on honest people selling fakes or crap.

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Bruno,

 

Yes, and from time to time, there are auctions

 

For foreigners, we have in Paris an institution which is called offically :

 

Crédit Municipal aka Mont de Piété aka Ma Tante (My Aunt)

 

You can borrow money against paintings, Jewels, silverware at a very small interest rate. You have a year to reimburse the loan, otherwise they are sold on auction.

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Today, only crap and they think they have treasures. Rusted out of polish blade with destroy koshirae, mumei : 600€ :cry: :cry:

 

Thank you Jean,

 

According to you they are overevaluated by the sellers? They worth less than prices asked?

 

I will go there soon by curiosity.

 

Regards

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Lee, I had no intention of impugning the Chinese as a whole, just those who churn out mountains of fake swords, tsuba, netsuke, inro, okimono and so on and then have the effrontery to state that a) they are Japanese, and b) that they are antique. Many of these are talented people and it is a great pity they cannot make a living in this crass commercial world using their talents honestly. I am reminded of the artist Tom keating who turned to doing drawings and paintings in the style of old masters and so forth. His work, now he is dead, fetches enormous prices because people have now accepted that he had talent.

China is producing many products that are superb value. I use a Chinese lathe and have to admit that it is at least as good if not better than most European products and cost about 1/3 of the price.

 

Ian Botomley

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China is producing many products that are superb value. I use a Chinese lathe and have to admit that it is at least as good if not better than most European products and cost about 1/3 of the price.

 

Ian,

 

Hi there's the rub!!! There are as good if not better in manufacturing than Western countries.

 

If they are ready to go in the Nihonto market, with all their power and means, we are in trouble ..

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I'm going to jump in here for a moment after seeing the angels running for cover...

 

I've bought treasures on Ebay and I've bought garbage on Ebay. I've bought treasures from 'Dealers' and I've been sold garbage by 'Dealers'. What is of importance is that the ratio of garbage to treasure has shifted with time and -- EXPERIENCE! I rarely get fooled any more but always accept the fact that it could happen. Humility is the keeper of the pocketbook. I do not rely upon others remarks or observations unless I know that the person is well experienced and knowledgeable and then I second, third and fourth guess anyway. As for Ebay it's a big computer -- that's all it is. It is an auction house and like all auction houses it is there to provide a service of bringing sellers and buyers together and to make a profit, not be an arbiter of wisdom or authenticity. It is ultimately up to the buyer to be discerning, do his due diligence, have resources for research, and look before he leaps. Caveat Emptor! If in doubt -- DON'T! Or, to put it from the hawker's perspective and to quote W. C. Fields, "Never give a sucker and even break or smarten up a chump"! LOL

 

And now a word from our alternate sponser, Sun Tzu...

 

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.

If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.

If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself."

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