Jump to content

Kantei


Rivkin

Recommended Posts

I was happy to guess the direction with Yamato Shizu, and there are so many interesting hints by Rivkin about the origin. I am not well versed in traditional practices of kantei so my thinking will be maybe bit out of box, as I do not know traditional style and traditions (who gets featured etc.). I hope I will go forward into right direction following the hints and not in the wrong way (that can often happen for me when I try to think too much).

 

I think my second guess would be Taima. I am not well versed in finer details and traits that differentiate these schools from one another. I would think Taima would be traditionally considered as "the best" of Yamato schools. Taima would also be fitting the late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō time frame quite well. I feel also the earlier description about very specific attribution to smith for which there are not really mumei attributions would in my opinion suit Taima Kuniyuki. I know several signed tachi by him but not a single mumei sword attributed towards him. He is often thought as the founder of Taima but I believe some Taima work pre-date him in current state of research.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I was happy to guess the direction with Yamato Shizu, and there are so many interesting hints by Rivkin about the origin. I am not well versed in traditional practices of kantei so my thinking will be maybe bit out of box, as I do not know traditional style and traditions (who gets featured etc.). I hope I will go forward into right direction following the hints and not in the wrong way (that can often happen for me when I try to think too much).

I think my second guess would be Taima. I am not well versed in finer details and traits that differentiate these schools from one another. I would think Taima would be traditionally considered as "the best" of Yamato schools. Taima would also be fitting the late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō time frame quite well. I feel also the earlier description about very specific attribution to smith for which there are not really mumei attributions would in my opinion suit Taima Kuniyuki. I know several signed tachi by him but not a single mumei sword attributed towards him. He is often thought as the founder of Taima but I believe some Taima work pre-date him in current state of research.

 

Its a very good guess, but midareba typically precludes Taima. They tend to be hard nie-suguha group, Tegai with good itame, not much into 1cm wide/20cm long nie "sunagashi". There is indeed a notion that signed Taima tend to be softer. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Nah, you do see it with Yamato Shizu. Shizu is not that great with itame jigane and he goes pure hard nie in hamon. A bit rougher overall.

B0019586-Edit-Edit-Edit.jpg

 

 

Hi, yes following the hamon near the habuchi, just i could not find examples where it is high up towards the Shinogi-ji,  as in the kantei sword.

 

Live and learn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Thank you for clarifying - very interesting piece. I would put a lot of faith in the attribution from Tenrai as he is my teacher's  grandfather and is actually the first person to put the Hon'Ami system of kantei as we know it into print.

Looking forward to the reveal but I do have to say I totally disagree with the following statement;

"The real purpose of kantei as we all know for the organizer is to have no risk o-sensei cosplay while embarrassing everyone else."

 

 

Aaa, Kamakura's Honami...

I don't like the proper kantei.

Shijo makes you memorize the combos of nouns corresponding to each maker... even though reading them is difficult, its not 100% objective and often different writeups on the same blade greatly diverge. It boxes you into stereotypes which in reality are not applicable as the works tend not to adhere 100% to what he is supposed to be in a kantei book.

The "real in hand" means three months prep-bootcamp committed to memorizing everything possible about 50-150 or so smiths. Its useful, but again - too fixed on stereotypes, avoids hard questions and narrow.

 

A complex early blade with multiple opinions is what I like the most. We don't know what it is - but we can present a few theories, discussing them and end up with two decent ones.

Thus I'll stick with illegal options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Hi, yes following the hamon near the habuchi, just i could not find examples where it is high up towards the Shinogi-ji,  as in the kantei sword.

 

Live and learn.

 

Yes, in the shinogi ji with Yamato Shizu its extremely uncommon and uncharacteristic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its an interesting choice.

Later Uda can do decent Rai-styled jigane, and in regards to the late Kamakura Uda I think there are no 100% certain signed examples, so that would make a contentious point.

However they are typically specifically described as late Kamakura at best, nioi-guchi tends to be subdued, midareba is extremely uncharacteristic, pieces with Kamakura-like sugata tend to have rough Yamato jigane.  It sounds like a good guess to me, but no.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kirill, my first guess is that it is a sword that you will have at the San Francisco show!

I also thought Norishige, based on some sections with what looks like matsukawa hada (plus you liked the Ko-Uda call).

Beyond that I thought it might be a shin shinto utsushi of a Yamato blade, but that seems out of the question.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Feels like we should do at least a partial reveal here...

 

Yoshihiro.

Honami Tenrai.

 

Now any guesses on the qualification by Honami Koson (supposed, comparing to oshigata is always a bit iffy) and what the NBTHK papers/sayagaki say?

B0023506-Edit.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let’s do the reveal!

As I said earlier, please cut me some slack – its easy to act as sensei when one runs the kantei and has all the cards, but still explanations should be given – and they should come with an exclamation its just a personal opinion.

 

There are a few ways to judge this blade.

Sugata locks you into either Kamakura-earliest Nambokucho or very late Nambokucho-early Muromachi. In hand the lack of niku and the balance point suggests Kamakura, but this is subjective.

Its heavily nie-based so its either Yamato or Soshu, with some exceptions. The coarse jigane in shinogi-ji comes up as very long lines, and that’s a sign there is long masame there as well.

 

Lets go Yamato route, its easier and faster.

Possibility 1: Not much comparable in early Muromachi, so accept the notion its Kamakura. Kamakura Yamato by definition should be first and foremost considered as Senjuin.

Possibility 2: Its Yamato with midareba. By definition it can only be Senjuin. That’s actually what the sayagaki argues. It can be added that nioi choji-like midare in Yamato is also exclusive Senjuin traits.

Lets go Soshu route, its also fun.

It does look like Satsuma, but nioi-guchi is seldom Satsuma’s strong point, it tends not to do nioi based midareba covered by nie and sugata is quite off. But its an important note, because Satsuma was particularly inspired by Go and Norishige. In the same way if we would say its Horikawa, we mean it looks like Sadamune.

We can also right away check that nie 1cm wide and 20cm long endulating “belt” is either Yamato Shizu or Etchu, its Extremely uncommon everywhere else.

So in Soshu route there are not that many practicing first class tight itame (often referred to as Awataguchi hada) with bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi. Most Kamakura lineage is strictly nie based, for example. The three options here are Sa, Naotsuna and Go. Some Mino Kanenobu are nioi based but nioi-guchi is weak and jigane is large featured. Naotsuna tends to have large featured jigane, more mokume. Sa is a good option, I felt. His itame hada is excellent, but he did not do much masame-nagare and ara nie away from hamon is uncommon. If you look at his kinsuji you don’t really see transition to masame.

 

In fact, Awataguchi hada with nagare, bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi, plenty of ara nie and occasional use of “nie belts” in Etchu fashion is a textbook definition of Go. You can find the exact wording more or less in “Connoseurs”. Re: Nabeshima Go meito and many other examples.

 

So what’s wrong with calling it a Go? First the boshi is not typical for Soshu, Go’s in particular tends to be much wider, its can be called “yakitsume” but its wide. Sugata is a bit different, the sori is larger, the tapering is larger than what you usually see with Go. There is arguably stronger presence of masame-nagare, nie within the hamon forms really nice clouds, but overall its presence is more… sort of  “stout”. It has substantially more Yamato character to it.

Here one can remember that there Senjuin Yoshihiro smiths from Echizen province, with signed examples, and Go Yoshihiro is often considered to be one of them. So the commentary of Honami Koson (which might be my confirmation bias, I really need to study the issue much more!) was that its Kamakura period’s Senjuin Yoshihiro, possibly the father of Go.

 

This in turn should bring us to the question – what is the so called Senjuin school? As I mentioned, its not advised to be placed in judged competition except Ryumon Nobuyoshi. The attribution to particular names is impossible; there have been attempts to write up different subschools but they all run into problems that there are plenty of nijimei examples which are papered Senjuin but which are not consistent namewise with “Shigehiro school” etc. Its also largely attributed in a negative fashion: really old blade with Yamato features which is not Yasutsuna or Kyushu-mono.

How did we come to this?

To an extent we have to thank the “five Yamato traditions” for that. When the classification was created Tegai Kanenaga and Hosho smiths were considered almost mid-Kamakura, and Taima was also referenced in Kamakura genealogies. When it became apparent that Taima, Shikkake and Hosho were very short lived, Tegai did not really begin until 1300 – still the “five traditions” were kept. So you have a bizarre case that Yamato Shizu is not considered a mainline, while Taima does.

Even more bizarre case is that while every Soshu tradition is “shadowed” by its Yamato counterpart, all of these counterparts actually can be found in Kamakura period’s Senjuin examples. Here is mid Kamakura “proto-Taima” in tight itame with nie splashed all over.

The quality varies, but towards 1270-1310 you start seeing extremely high end Senjuin. Awataguchi hada, nie laced throughout; the best ones do tend to come to old attributions to Echizen Masters like Go and Norishige. But they are different: the forging style can vary a lot within the blade, more comfortable with pure masame sections, more comfortable with chouji midareba or nioi ko chouji based hamon. The signatures are sadly lacking, but it can be ascertained as Echizen Senjuin – a precursor to Echizen Soshu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

senju.jpg

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been very fun thread. I must admit I wouldn't have guessed Senjuin as I would have expected bit "rougher". Of course the tips with dealer hinting it as early-mid Kamakura and one smith (Nobuyoshi) being featured are now easy to see after knowing the result. I agree that Senjuin has slight "problems" as work by them (and attributed to Senjuin) span from earliest work seen as being from late Heian period up to end of Nanbokuchō. So there is a lot of ground to be covered.

 

For Senjuin Yoshihiro I have 2 dated swords a tachi from 1358 and tantō from 1353. I know there are possibly items from 1340's by him but I have not yet seen pictures of them in references. But perhaps Honami have had different info on him.

 

I enjoyed this a lot, very tricky one :thumbsup:

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last time i bring this up.

 

Not wanting to sound nitpicky, but (dare i say it) the Ara-nie, would anyone agree that for this school it looks unintentional?. Im not saying you wont find it on these blades, just saying it comes across as a forging error, to me any way.

 

This for me made it a lot more difficult, looking at blades such as Satsuma.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Last time i bring this up.

Not wanting to sound nitpicky, but (dare i say it) the Ara-nie, would anyone agree that for this school it looks unintentional?. Im not saying you wont find it on these blades, just saying it comes across as a forging error, to me any way.

This for me made it a lot more difficult, looking at blades such as Satsuma.

 

In Sadamune you start seeing now and then a string of ara-nie towards the mune, but he is a calm one. With Go its very much tobiyaki/ara nie heavy. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, Kiril, it was rather challenging. 
One thing to point out - with Sadamune and Go the nie is not so large and ostentatious as here. It is somehow more refined. 

Overall, I was also expecting much cruder and more archaic looking jigane for Senjuin than this tighter hada in places. So, this blade surprised me. 
 

So, could you please recap the 4 attributions? Apart from Senjuin Yoshihiro, were the others merely saying Kamakura Senjuin or even just Senjuin? 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2022 at 10:44 PM, Gakusee said:

Thank you, Kiril, it was rather challenging. 
One thing to point out - with Sadamune and Go the nie is not so large and ostentatious as here. It is somehow more refined. 

Overall, I was also expecting much cruder and more archaic looking jigane for Senjuin than this tighter hada in places. So, this blade surprised me. 
 

So, could you please recap the 4 attributions? Apart from Senjuin Yoshihiro, were the others merely saying Kamakura Senjuin or even just Senjuin? 

 

I would find this interesting too.

 

I get why even experts may disagree on this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Rivkin said:

NBTHK: Yamato Senjuin (Kamakura).

Sayagaki: Senjuin, alternative is Yamato Shizu.

Honami Tenrai:  Yoshihiro

Honami Koson (needs more research to verify 100%): Etchu Senjuin Yoshihiro, late Kamakura.

Thank you very much. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...