Are organizations obsolete

[Jean]

When one relies upon others’ judgements to declare himself elitist, problems arise….

 

As it has been said blades must been judged according their own merits, independently of the smiths. It is what experts do for o suriage or mumei blades in Shinsa. Quality then determine the level of the kanteisho. A blade by a Rai smith, be his level saijo saku, may never reach Juyo level.

 

The sword makes the smith and not the opposite.

 

 

[mas4t0]

1 hour ago, Jean said:

When one relies upon others’ judgements to declare himself elitist, problems arise….

 

But that's precisely what an elitist is.

 

An elitist is someone who believes that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people perceived as having high intellect, wealth, power, notability, special skills, experience, etc—are more likely to have relevant expertise.

 

If someone is an elitist, they accept the above, so it naturally follows that they believe those experts deserve influence or authority greater than that of others, and that others should defer to expert judgements.

 

I think that the above is rather uncontroversial in most circumstances. If you need surgery or legal representation you'd probably prefer a properly qualified professional with an excellent reputation (I certainly would).

 

I'm still unsure though whether the opinion being expressed (with the word "elitist") was that we should defer to the wisdom of the intelligentsia (in Japan), or if something else was meant, such as, "You should respect my authority."

[AntiquarianCat]

That sounds more like technocratic: if you mean deferring to specialists and their data/judgment. Which makes sense, follow the facts and the people trained to collect and interpret.

 

But there is also a kind of inappropriate appeal to authority: "wealth, power, notability" are not a proxy for expertise or having data and many times I’ve seen people make the mistake of trusting a celebrity or business magnate on something unconnected to their field. Someone might be an entertaining celebrity or fashionable executive but they might not know a thing about how vaccines work.

 

Trusting a shinsa seems like the good kind of deferring to experts: they have a lifetime of looking at data and analyzing while I don’t so sure, while I try to study and get better it’s important I get my guesses checked by experts. On the other hand I won’t be taking surgery from a tech ceo or tv commentator.

[mas4t0]

2 hours ago, AntiquarianCat said:

That sounds more like technocratic: if you mean deferring to specialists and their data/judgment. Which makes sense, follow the facts and the people trained to collect and interpret.

 

But there is also a kind of inappropriate appeal to authority: "wealth, power, notability" are not a proxy for expertise or having data and many times I’ve seen people make the mistake of trusting a celebrity or business magnate on something unconnected to their field. Someone might be an entertaining celebrity or fashionable executive but they might not know a thing about how vaccines work.

 

Trusting a shinsa seems like the good kind of deferring to experts: they have a lifetime of looking at data and analyzing while I don’t so sure, while I try to study and get better it’s important I get my guesses checked by experts. On the other hand I won’t be taking surgery from a tech ceo or tv commentator.

 

I'm not making an argument for elitism, or seeking to engage in a philosophical discussion, just defining terms to see if there's an alternative definition being used by others here; as I don't follow the meaning of a few posts.

 

Elitism could result in technocracy, but elitism is more general and can take many forms. Historically elitism has often been related to social class, with monarchy being supported by elitist doctrines such as the divine right of kings (i.e. that kings derived their authority from God and could not therefore be held accountable for their actions by any earthly authority, such as a parliament).

 

Elitism is basically the belief that all opinions are not equal, and that the opinions of certain groups are more meaningful than others (regardless of the grounds for thinking that). Some may believe that the views expressed by their religious leaders carry especially high weight, others may believe that the views expressed by (relevant) academics carry especially high weight, others may believe that the views of the elderly carry especially high weight, etc; anyone who believes that the input of one particular group is likely to be more constructive than the input of another can be considered to be elitist.

 

This is diametrically opposed to direct democracy (as in the case of an anonymous referendum for instance) where every vote carries the same weight irrespective of the expertise, social status, etc of the person casting the vote.

 

There are philosophical arguments for elitism on almost any grounds, and this has been fertile ground for discussion for millennia. There's plenty of arguments for authority being respected on the grounds of wealth, power and notability. As this forum is devoted to Japanese swords, I'd maybe suggest Japanese history as a source for why it has often been necessary to respect the wealthy, powerful, notable, etc and to hold them in the very highest esteem.

[AntiquarianCat]

Elitism and technocracy are arguably not the same as you can have wealthy and powerful without competence and competence without wealth - Kiyomaro comes to mind. That is why I find it a strange term to chose.

 

Indeed but we are talking about analysis aren’t we? And so yes I will gladly read what the experts say and try to think of why they came to their conclusions. I will take an old sword that was once sent as sankin kotai gift as Masmune with a grain of salt if the experts have since given a thumbs down. I completely agree with respect, with trying to understand the culture that made an artifact, and maybe seeing what made it superficially and socially pass as a masmune, I just won’t think it one… 

[Mark S.]

Elitism 

 

There is a huge difference between saying “I only LIKE the best 10 smiths” (and by default “so should you”) and “I KNOW jack about those 10 smiths”… or anything else for that matter. 

 

I’ve met many people who have money and claim to like the best (of whatever… cars, wine, etc.) only because they could afford it, not because they knew or appreciated anything about it.  And I’ve met people who ‘claim’ to like the best of everything because they think that is what they should say to impress people.  You can never be wrong with that claim and you can even pretend to ‘hang with’ the ‘right crowd’ based only on your words.
 

I’ve also met many people who can enjoy the best of everything, graciously share some of that experience with others, are grateful for their ability to have all that, and still treat others who don’t have all that with respect and dignity.  Rare maybe?  

[Alex A]

I thought the whole point of "art" was to be able to look at it and understand it and appreciate it for oneself, without influence.

 

Some folk live within the confines of books and outdated opinions and expect others to follow suit.

 

In that respect, they become narrow minded and cheat themselves.

 

These people never think outside the boundaries and never progress to teach others anything new.

 

Same old ,,,,,,,,

 

Boring really, 

 

Thank God some folk seek out new ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[waljamada]

I'll just leave this magazine I have framed on my wall here....

[Jacques D.]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by elitist, it's probably because I'm not a native English speaker, and my English is far from perfect. I was referring to objects (swordsmiths are long dead). I respect everyone regardless of their social rank but I have a hard time with people who claim to question knowledge in general (whether it's Nihonto, global warming, Covid etc). One of my professors at the university used to tell us this: "To judge an expert you have to be an expert yourself" (I am not an expert and as such I respect and accept without question what the NBTHK experts say). I'm sorry but when I see that amateurs allow themselves to declare that organizations like the NBTHK may be obsolete or that their judgement is to be taken with a pinch of salt (n'est ce pas Jean ?), it makes me angry.

[Alex A]

Briefly,

 

Jacques, im pretty sure every collector has a lot of respect for the NBTHK etc etc.

 

Their opinions can vary, just check out the blade in the kantei with 4 attributions!

 

Rankings, do you not think there is bias?.  

 

Personally, would  be great to see something new, other expert opinions and preferences

 

I would find this interesting.

See what remains the same and what would change

 

Kind of feels stagnant at times, this hobby

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Jacques, im pretty sure every collector has a lot of respect for the NBTHK etc etc.

I don't think so, I've already read many reviews 

 

Quote

Their opinions can vary, just check out the blade in the kantei with 4 attributions!

Yes, but I don't have the knowledge to know if it's relevant or not.

 

Quote

Rankings, do you not think there is bias?.

 

Once again, I don't have enough knowledge to judge, I know my place and I stay there, which is not the case for everyone, far from it.

 

 

[Alex A]

Ok, so just bias in the Wazamono rankings, i take it

[Jacques D.]

It's easy to demonstrate, it's just a question of physics and I'm an expert in this field 

[Alex A]

Aye, its widely accepted.

[mas4t0]

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

I think you misunderstood what I meant by elitist, it's probably because I'm not a native English speaker, and my English is far from perfect. I was referring to objects (swordsmiths are long dead). I respect everyone regardless of their social rank but I have a hard time with people who claim to question knowledge in general (whether it's Nihonto, global warming, Covid etc). One of my professors at the university used to tell us this: "To judge an expert you have to be an expert yourself" (I am not an expert and as such I respect and accept without question what the NBTHK experts say). I'm sorry but when I see that amateurs allow themselves to declare that organizations like the NBTHK may be obsolete or that their judgement is to be taken with a pinch of salt (n'est ce pas Jean ?), it makes me angry.

 

Thank you Jacques for explaining your meaning.

 

That's what I assumed you meant.

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Their opinions can vary, just check out the blade in the kantei with 4 attributions!

I have to come back on that, it is the opinion of 4 different people/organism and not 4 different opinions coming from only one organism (which would have surprised me a lot because in this case the blade is put in standby the time to make some research)

[Alex A]

Yes, 4 people with different attributions.

 

 

[Alex A]

Point being, 4 different people_4 different answers.

 

Ask them their opinion on smiths and again you will get a varied response.

 

This is why i think it would be interesting to see other rankings/info from different experts.

 

Especially in this day and age,

 

 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

15 hours ago, mas4t0 said:

 

But that's precisely what an elitist is.

 

An elitist is someone who believes that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people perceived as having high intellect, wealth, power, notability, special skills, experience, etc—are more likely to have relevant expertise.

 

If someone is an elitist, they accept the above, so it naturally follows that they believe those experts deserve influence or authority greater than that of others, and that others should defer to expert judgements.

 

I think that the above is rather uncontroversial in most circumstances. If you need surgery or legal representation you'd probably prefer a properly qualified professional with an excellent reputation (I certainly would).

 

I'm still unsure though whether the opinion being expressed (with the word "elitist") was that we should defer to the wisdom of the intelligentsia (in Japan), or if something else was meant, such as, "You should respect my authority."

 

It's not like this hasn't happen in the Japanese Nihonto community some years ago. Read the tea leaf, history repeats itself. 

[mas4t0]

32 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

It's not like this hasn't happen in the Japanese Nihonto community some years ago. Read the tea leaf, history repeats itself. 

 

Are you making an analogy between kantei and divination?

[Jussi Ekholm]

20 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

I don't know if a sword made by a chujo saku has reached the rank of juyo but I would be very surprised. Jussi will probably be able to tell us about this fact. A high ranked smith will not let a mediocre work go by, it's a matter of personal pride, of course there will be some that will be less successful but the quality is always there. 

 

I was looking at chū-saku smiths (the lowest Fujishiro rank) at Jūyō and there are few that have made it (most have not made it). I excluded lineages that have higher ranked smith generations as I can't check every item specifically and most likely items passing in those cases are work of more famous generation.

 

Yoshii Kiyonori - 9 blades

Niō Kiyosada - 2 blades

Kai-Mihara Masamori - 1 blade

Kanabō Masatsugu - 4 blades

Shimada Motosuke - 3 blades

Bungo Munekage - 1 blade

Terushige - 3 blades

Ujishige - 1 blade

 

Of course there are lots of smiths that are not ranked in Fujishiro too. As Jūyō swords are well past 10,000 items I think they can have a sword or 2 from even lesser ranked smiths perhaps representing the top tier of their work. But the correlation between Fujishiro rank and Jūyō is a good one to think about, I admit I haven't really thought about it before.

[Alex A]

Cheers Jussi, interesting, and surprised.

[Jacques D.]

Thanks Jussi, it's very instructive. I didn't think that Masatsugu could get a juyo although he is really talented, the attached omi yari has absolutely no defect and shows quality (rare thing for a 71cm yari)

 

[Alex A]

Nice!

[Alex A]

Ps, Is that yours?

 

If so, thought you avoided Chu-Jo. ?

[Jacques D.]

No, it's not mine. 

[Toryu2020]

There may be other factors for a sword to go Juyo but if we accept that the workmanship has to be there then this is enough of a sample for me to accept that  a Chujo-saku smith can indeed have a really good day! And the statement stands.

 

-tch

 

[mas4t0]

Given that Fujishiro's system is contextual (i.e. he refers a smith's ability to those in his school, time period and tradition), a smith who (for example) may have a Jo saku rating and was part of one of the top schools may be of higher skill than a Sai-jo smith of a lesser time period and school...

 

Do we know the extent to which Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo are contextual?

 

As in, is it a competition with all other blades submitted in that session, or is there an element of contextuality?

 

Would it stand to reason that a very slightly "objectively better" sword may be passed over in favour of an exceptional example from of a lesser smith of a lesser time period or school (a slight handicap as it were, such as in golf, horse racing, and competitive sailing in order to make the chances more equal)?

 

I realise there's a lot of variables, but I'm just trying to understand the last few posts. My understanding is that a Juyo from a chū-saku smith would tend to be quite a weak Juyo compared to Juyo blades from higher ranked smiths of the same school and time period.

 

I'm thinking here only of signed pieces, as unsigned pieces (if assigned to a particular smith) will no doubt be assigned in accordance with the skill and workmanship displayed (i.e. better blades will be assigned to higher ranked smiths and lesser blades will be assigned to lower ranked smiths).

 

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

[Paz]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:59 PM, IBot said:

Way back in 1968 I and another corresponding member of the UK ToKen Society, that holds its meetings in London, decided to contact others in the North of England. Getting to meetings in London was not really feasible for me since it would have involved travelling some 180 miles, and since the meetings were held in the evening, staying overnight in a hotel, or travelling back during the night and then facing work the following day. Plotting the addresses of other corresponding members showed around half dozen or so lived within 1 to 2 hours drive of Manchester and were prepared to meet at two monthly intervals. Premises in that city were identified and in due course some 6 to 8 members met in an upstairs room above a pub in Manchester. Sadly by the date of the second meeting the pub had been tranformed into a trendy bar who refused us the use of the upper room and was so dimly illuminated that members had to take their swords into the only well-lit location in the premises - the gents toilet. Over the next many years members met in a series of locations, individuals dropping out and new ones joining but with the total of members rarely reaching a dozen. Then Covid hit and meetings were suspended, never to be revived. The reasons are many and varied. Old age has taken its toll and I suspect I am the only original member still alive. Others have lost the habit of going out in the evenings, given up collecting or now have vision problems that prevent them driving at night. In other words the Society is now defunct and sadly with no real likelyhood of restarting. Meeting with others, sharing knowledge and showing each other our latest treasure was an experience to look forward to that is now sadly missed.

Ian Bottomley 

 

Hi Ian and @paulb

 

Your spot on when it comes to age. I'm considering that I'm the youngest member of the token society UK at 34. And I have met a couple of members for sword purchase who all are in their 60s. I've rarely come across someone in the UK who is under 40 and member of the token society actively. And it is a shame that we can't meet even though I can get to London in an hour and half. 

 

Other than that all we have are books and Internet to learn from , and then buying blades themselves. 

 

I was a member of the British kendo association, practiced both kendo and iaido. And from my experience not many practioners especially amongst the young are interested in nihonto. Maybe either because they believe their too expensive and difficult to obtain ( which is a point), or they don't care. Nobody in our numerous conversations would ever bring up the topic of militaria collection. 

 

I do feel lonely in my hobby for the lack of better words. 

 

But I have come up with my own  solution. As I has a masters degree in Japanese studies,  I thought I'd use that knowledge to do personal blogging on my own site and social media. 

 

What I plan to do, to get the interest of people is write my own articles around the history and culture of nihonto. 

 

What I notice is that people are more interested in historical information and cultural information , than basic when and how the blade is actually made, materials,  types of hamon ect. 

 

So I'm trying to add as much history and culture to make each blade I talk about stand out. For example a blade by Terukado fujiwara, was also owned by kondo isami ect ect. I love to blend history and culture of its time to the blade. 

As I do believe each blade tells a story which an historian can take advantage of.

 

 

Hopefully il get this site up and running soon. 

 

Regards 

Paz

[Anthony de Vos]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:13 PM, IBot said:

 

[Has anyone else noticed problems with typing on the forum? I am finding the cursor keeps making random jumps so that I find I am typing into existing text.]

Ian Bottomley

Ian, you are just getting old or had one Campari to much. I experience the same problem probably for the same reason...

 

Anthony