Jump to content

Recent listing on Ebay,...thoughts?


Recommended Posts

Hi All,

 

I was browsing Ebay roughly a month ago, and came across this sword (it was a NR auction in which I did not bid): https://www.ebay.com/itm/134150682928?nma=true&si=mPphxVmRsB0qhauPt5Fb7EZ9ga8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

At the time I was mulling purchasing my first nihonto, but didn't feel ready (I still don't). However, I was taken aback at the sword in the listing. The hamon is wildly flamboyant, which I find stunning. The fact that it is signed, papered, and the koshirae appear to be in good keep add to its appeal. (These are my newbie heuristics at work.) 

 

Given the fact that in-hand inspection is/was a no-go, it seems like this would have been a good first-sword candidate. It seems to have all the ingredients for a great study piece. That said, I wonder what your thoughts are. Is $2500 a good deal for this (again, with acknowledgment we are dealing with incomplete information)? Obviously the market has spoken, but there may be a lot of noise in that signal (e.g. someone not serious about the study of Nihonto may have made an impulse purchase, thus inflating the price).

 

Whatever my first nihonto be, I've already decided I would like a piece with a chogi, gunome, or gunome-choji hamon. As of now that's as far as I've gotten in discovering my taste. Anyone else start there? If so, what came next? What smiths/schools were you eventually drawn to with this in mind? 

 

Thank you for your time,

Z

 

 

 

        

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Calling that polish kesho is being very generous; I would call it acid and ugly. Z, (give us your name please) ebay is a snake pit for beginners. You will do much better with proper guidance from a trusted dealer here in The States.

Grey

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks fellas, 

 

I've been engaged in a bunch of post-market surveillance on both Ebay and Yahoo (JP), as well as from various dealers.

 

I should say, though, I do have a preference for doing business in Japan. I spend several months there a year (have done so for 15+ years), and am comfortable navigating the business environment. It also helps that the yen is weak, and supply is better than in the US. So, I've been paying attention to inventory/prices in the links to dealers provided on this site (both domestically, and abroad). 

 

I have been to Ginza Chosuya before, and got the impression those guys are not one of the snakes in the pit. As an aside, when I first encountered nihonto in Japan (in 2003) I was given a largish stack of GC's monthly newsletter/catalogues from a friend there. I very much enjoy them. I did notice that the Samurai Museum is not listed in the dealer links section (https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/). Does anyone know what their reputation is?

 

As of now I am attempting to get a sense for what quality (blade/smith) correlates with what price point. Oh, and can someone explain the various rating systems as they appear on the swordsmith index? I've been trying to get a sense for various smith reputations and have found metrics there that contain the Hawley ranking, as well as something they call "TT." I found some information on the saku system, but I still have a very shallow understanding of it.

 

Okay, back to my original post: as for Chris' conjecture of over-polish, the seller's pictures of other blades have a similar quality to them, which may be an artifact of the photography. I wonder what specifically makes you suspect an over-polish (again, with the acknowledgement we are dealing with incomplete information). What does such a thing look like, in general? Same issue with the acid conjecture. I'd like to have eyes for these kinds of things. As of now I know what rust looks like. 8D 

 

I've got four months to scout for something I'd like to see in person in Japan. That should give me some time to read/study, and to pester people around here. If I don't find something, or am not confident enough to make a purchase, then I will wait. These objects will still be around. 


Thanks,
Z

 

   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A heuristic for acid “polishing” is: the Jigane has become unnaturally black, the hada has become weirdly coarse with all the grain opening up, the hamon has become oddly flat and bright whereas a normal hamon is subtle when light isn’t shining and dynamically bright when illuminated.

 

Often acid polishers will be total amateurs like the ebayer who’s account name ends with 22, they can’t polish at all and use ferric chloride to make details visible.
I’ve also heard some Japanese dealers take swords with mediocre polishes and give them Ferric chloride baths to make the details look flashier to new collectors. Ferric chloride is still really bad for a sword’s health, etches the surface, and leaves the sword primed for untreatable deep rust 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2022 at 7:44 AM, Z-Man said:

Does anyone know what their reputation is?

 

The Samurai Museum is a smallish, independent museum located in Kabukicho, Shinjuku (Tokyo). It is mostly for tourists, and despite that comment-that-sounds-like-a-condemnation, it is interesting and a good way to kill an hour or so if you are visiting Tokyo. I wouldn't expect them to have a very interesting inventory of swords. However, if you are just looking for an authentic Japanese sword I think you can safely buy from them. 

 

Ginza Chōshūya, is one of the top three sword dealers in Japan, so the prices and selection there will, in general, be higher and better than most other places. 

 

Regarding the rating/ranking system, its a huge topic. This thread below my be a good starting place, and then you can search various terms that pique your interest.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know if Darcy’s articles are still available but there was one related to the rating/ranking system.

 

a very good shop, one of the top, if not the best one is Sokendo. You will find swords from 5K¥ upto no limit (several 10M¥).

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am very happy to read you are doing the research before buying. :clap:

 

I think valuation of items is very tricky thing. I've been trying to keep an close eye at the market for items that interest me for perhaps the last 10 years, and I admit I am still often very puzzled. Major Japanese dealers are extremely smart business wise and they have knowledge on swords and sources to get them. So it is safe to assume that they know the market very well. You can sometimes see the same sword pop up at various dealers for slightly different price points, some dealers can perhaps have higher asking price just because of their high reputation.

 

Most swords available are pretty common (even is high level items). For the dealers they are easy to price, I would believe the dealers have pretty good idea about their potential profit very fast. Take something like Hizen Tadayoshi or Tadahiro and there are hundreds and hundreds of good quality signed items surviving by them. I would think dealers will have pretty good idea how they will price a common item by them. Of course sometimes you might come across item judged as excellent work by the smith and it can be priced very differently from others.

 

I can take a late Kamakura smith Ayanokōji Sueyuki as an example here. I saw few days ago a wakizashi in very bad condition that was attributed towards Sueyuki very recently at Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa. In my eyes that is not a good sword regardless of the attribution and I wouldn't look at it twice. The sword is at Yahoo JP for bit over 100,000 yen currently (I don't think it will rise too high): https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/k1057858498 then you can jump to the other extreme as Iida has signed tachi by Sueyuki for 10,000,000 yen: https://iidakoendo.com/4386/ Now this is almost 100x difference and huge gap, which can be bit baffling. There are 2 signed and 1 mumei tachi by this smith that have made Jūyō, and the one at Iida is one of them. It is often that items with Jūyō status carry a premium and also I think in this case too (but still items that make the Jūyō pass are excellent items in general), and you can combine that to the fact that Iida is one of the premium dealers in Japan. However there are other factors that come to play too. This tachi at Iida is by my research the 2nd longest tachi by Sueyuki surviving. There is longer one at Itsukushima Jinja but it will be impossible to own that one. So far I have only found 6 signed tachi by this smith. I do think the 3 signed tachi with Tokubetsu Hozon appraisal that I have seen online had various issues that of course affect the price. I think the 3 TH signed tachi were generally around 2M yen mark. Mumei tachi and katana attributed to Sueyuki I've seen in the market are generally 1M - 3M range. The 2 mumei items by Sueyuki below 1M have been in bad condition. For comparison there are mumei Ayanokōji attributed katana with Jūyō around 4-5M yen. While I think the price of the tachi at Iida is high and it has been in their inventory for many years, I don't think it is unreasonable. If you want very good signed Ayanokōji tachi and can't afford/get Sadatoshi then this would be the option. This might have been bit boring stuff about valuation of Ayanokōji Sueyuki.

 

I just used the above smith as an example, and similar price searching stuff could be done for any smith (perhaps excluding some legendary ones as they don't generally appear on the open market).

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jussi,

 

Thank you so much for your response. That Sueyuki piece looks like a head ache. I cannot make out the hamon very well, plus it looks scratched all to bits. I wouldn't pay 100,000 yen for it, in fact, I wouldn't pay anything for it (something I think you articulated about yourself as well). My real priority at these beginning stages is to get my eyes in some kind of order so as to avoid buying either 1) junk, or 2) an overpriced item. I've been reading regularly the past few months, and have come to the point where I think it helpful to have an example in hand to interact with. Luckily, there is a nihonto club that meets relatively close to where I am at, so that'll be a good resource, too. The more ears to chew on, the better. 

 

I must say, though, I am a bit worried about some things. One possibility is that whatever I end up being custodian of, I will end up damaging it. I've seen that claim made on some posts here. I would like to avoid this. I wonder what mistakes people have made that resulted in a damage piece (I'm interested in the unobvious, or lesser obvious ones, as well as the obvious ones).

 

Best,

Shane

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is good that you have a club nearby, I think we have a member from the board in that club too? It will be nice to attend the meetings and get to see some items. I agree that getting an item is also helpful and of course fun. :laughing:

 

I think part of the idea on the above Sueyuki writeup was also that even though people in general speak c. latish Kamakura being the "golden age" etc. I feel it is not worth to get bottom of the barrel item just to get a potential Kamakura period item. I think it would be much better to get a decent Muromachi or Edo period sword for example. I know people talk perhapas negatively about recommending Shintō when "everybody knows collecting is all about Kotō stuff". I just personally feel that Edo period or late Muromachi item in good condition is much better early on than a questionable Kamakura item. Of course I don't really practice what I preach and I go for quirky old stuff (but it is important to know the downsides of the questionable items and if you are ok with them it is different ball game)... :laughing:

 

I think the important thing is that you like the item you will buy. You might end up selling it to fund another purchase along the way or you might evolve liking into different types of swords etc.

 

For the mistakes in sword care I will recommend avoid using uchiko on a sword. I know late member Darcy was very vocal in his view in ditching uchiko (I believe you will enjoy reading his very analytical views on rankings, value, etc.), I do believe he is correct. Several years ago I used very slightly pressure when using uchiko and it caused few scratches in the polish. I was bit shocked how easily the scratches came and after that I have been using just pure alcohol for cleaning.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Shane, just a few thoughts from the UK.

Firstly decide exactly what you want to start with……..a blade in mint polish and shirasaya or a blade in good polish and in original koshirae (ie a true “complete” Nihonto) or a blade in mediocre condition either in s/saya or Koshirae. There are many combinations and permutations to choose from. Sounds like you are taking your time to think about it and that’s excellent. The reason I suggest deciding exactly what you want to collect is because the potential for “damage” varies greatly depending on what is in front of you.

A mint polish in shirasaya is both a joy (depending on the polish) and a nightmare. The potential for “damage” (depending on how you define it) is  far higher than a blade that already shows it life journey. If you are a perfectionist then the smallest scuff on a mint polish caused by a contaminated wipe or minor encounter with the wrong tabletop can cause massive anxiety. The same “damage” to a less pristine item (whilst still very undesirable) will not cause you such trauma and may not even be noticeable. Again….there are many permutations.

Avoiding damage is mostly a matter of common sense. Don’t swing it around - ever. Don’t be tempted to see if it cuts. Always make sure the mekugi is in place when it needs to be. Use appropriate oils and wipes. Don’t try and restore it yourself…..you will ALWAYS wish you hadn’t tried. Store it where it can’t be knocked over or accessed by anyone who shouldn’t have access.

Realistically you can only gain that experience and confidence by handling swords, firstly preferably in the company of someone more “knowledgeable” who can tutor you. After that you’ll been fine, until someone hands you a Kiyomaro in mint polish and asks “what do you think?”🙂😳

Don’t overthink things….and good luck. Enjoy.

Colin.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Shane, 

 

Good to see you doing homework before buying. All above is great advice and insight. If possible handle and study as many blades as possible. Nothing compares to examples in hand! Narrow down your criteria after study and be patient as a sword you are looking for will inevitably pop up. It took me two almost three years of study, advice, and refining criteria before making a investment. I say investment not for resale but it can be costly, for the sword, and in my case a very nice new custom Koshirae, and a little time consuming to ensure proper care and storage. Best of luck!

 

P.S. if advice is needed there are members here you can confide in and get good advice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...