Poll:- New collectors and ages of Nihonto enthusiasts

[watsonmil]

In response to Barry's note about the word .... Eh . Few know,... probably fewer care, .... the word " eh " that Canadians are infamous for using is a Cree Indian word meaning ....

Do you understand, ... or ... Do you follow me. ........... Ron Watson

[Kurogasa55]

21 years old

 

Been interested since i was 13. Been an Iaido/Kenjutsu student since then as well

 

Been collecting Nihonto for awhile now.

 

4 swords all together. One is a WW2 era showa-to. The other 3 are old samurai swords that are unsigned. No plans on quitting collecting

[ububob]

Funny, the graph at beginning almost reflects a perfect normal distribution.

[sanjuro]

Bob.

 

Take this opportunity to revel in this small piece of evidence of normality among nihonto collectors. Such evidence of normality is rare indeed. In most other respects we are a strange (but lovable) bunch.

[David Flynn]

I'm not

[sanjuro]

David.

 

Are you saying you are (a) Not strange....... Or (b) Not lovable???????

[Brian]

Not normal.

Few of us are. We just bend stats to show we are.

Reminds me of that "demotivation" poster that says: "Just remember, you are unique. Just like everybody else out there"

 

Brian

[David Flynn]

[bmlusk1911]

I turn 31 on April 7th ..... and I bought my first Wakizashi (the Kane Sada) from a local collector. I picked up my second blade at the Tampa Token Kai last month.

[Lindus]

60-69 age group "helluva age!!!"

 

Life was so simple then, you bought Robinson & Yumoto,read cover to cover and set out as an expert.......swords were £40 to £100, a dealer offered me a splendid Daisho for £800 and thought he was mad.

 

Ron Gregory sat in the garden with me and showed three swords he had picked up, one with a gold inlaid cutting test & a daisho with a snake horimono as well as similar on the saya's.......cost.....10/- & £5.

 

While I appreciate just how far the learning curve has come,it was so much fun then.

Roy

[harrison28514]

I received my first collection piece when I was 20(That was a year ago).

However, sadly enough, it was a gimei katana( wasn't really sure whether it was a tachi or a katana).

Frankly I wasn't surprised to hear that there is a great shortage of young collectors.

Well, it does cost a fortune in the end doesn't it? It's hard to see young people who can afford such luxuries.

 

Cheers,

 

Aris

[reinhard]

Frankly I wasn't surprised to hear that there is a great shortage of young collectors. Well, it does cost a fortune in the end doesn't it? It's hard to see young people who can afford such luxuries.

 

Welcome Aris (and to all youngsters deterred by high prices),

 

Studying NihonTo does not necessarily include collecting.

As with all luxury goods, including arts, there should be fun, enthusiasm and passion in the first place. Looking for instant gratification by owning something is a bad guide. Take your time. Study books and good swords when- and wherever you can. As time goes by, you will find the sword(s) you like and can afford. This is not about collecting stamps or baseball-cards.

 

Good luck and stay tuned

 

reinhard

[shamrock5]

I live in Massachusetts, the young people I have spoken to, regarding Japanese swords and WWII, seem to be clueless about world history, and have no interest in WWII. I find that to be very sad. Maybe it is a reflection of the education or lack of education here in Massachusetts. As a side note, when my nice was in high school, I looked at her history book. There were only 2.5 pages on WWII. When I questioned her about her knowledge of Japanese swords, edged weapons and WWII, I felt like I was speaking in a foreign tongue.

[poorfarm]

In that 60-69 group, Ughh, an age poll:( But I don't feel it! ... yet

Study of Art, History and Culture now occupy most of my time and ALL of my money. There is enough to learn about Nihonto to occupy several lifetimes and still fall short. I've found the same with any pursuit once one digs under the surface.

Most difficult for me so far is the terminology- however it does seem slightly easier than its counterpart in the Indonesian cultures.

 

Robert D

[bomulder]

I'll be 57 this month. Brand new to Nihonto and purely by accident. We had to borrow my future father-in-law's car since our car was in extended service. Before returning his car we decided to clean it thoroughly, since we belief to return borrowed things better than when you got them. In organizing the clutter of golf equipment in the trunk we discovered a Japanese "dagger" stuck in the back against the backseat. It looked old and authentic. We asked dad what the reason for the blade in the back of the trunk was for. He said he had totally forgotten about it, but it was from his late brother. His brother had Army tour in Japan right after the end of WWII. When he came back he had his foot locker stored at Dad's garage, where it remained for over 30 years till the house was sold. Upon clearing out the footlocker Dad found this shoto and threw it into the back of the trunk. Each time he bought a new car the shoto was thrown in the back of the trunk till we found it few weeks ago. We (me and my fiancee) are both enthusiasts of old Japanese samurai culture ever since the Tom Cruise movie. I asked dad if he would allow us to get the blade looked at by an expert for evaluation and possible appraisal. He agreed and expressed willingness to sell it and split profit if it turned out to be of value over $200 or more. If found to be junk or fake he would rather keep it as a memory to his brother.

 

We have a local friend that is a Japanese sword-fighting instructor. We showed it to him and he recommended it to be evaluated by his friend who is a well-respected sword dealer and expert in blade identification. We took pictures and send them to the expert in hopes to get more information and a meeting in person. My friend asked that we wait for his friend's opinion before talking to others. Weeks passed and we were never able to show the blade to my friend's friend.

 

Being an serious amateur photographer I started taking detailed pictures of the shoto. Looking at the close-ups I noticed details I had not noticed before and got real appreciation for the craftsmanship in making this shoto. Wanting to find out the Japanese inscription on the short utility knife blade (Kozuka with mei), I posted a picture on FaceBook. With help from my friend who knows some Japanese I got a rough translation.

 

Meantime, I also started on-line research and hit on this Nihonto Message Board. I posted asking for help on the mei on the kozuka while waiting to get help on the blade from the local expert referred to. The help on the mei was fantastic and extremely helpful. It really encouraged me to find more information and learn the finer details I never knew about.

 

I learned that the handle part was most likely made by others than the swordsmith and that the study of those parts was a whole other part of appreciation of art and craftsmanship. The tsuba became more interesting when I took a better picture and more details became apparent. The study of the tsuba scene became a fascinating research on available information . I have posted the tsuba here with my interpetation, but have run into no comments so far, although it is being viewed by many.

 

I have also now posted pictures of the complete wakizashi and all it's parts, but not gotten any responses other than a from Chris B. on the blade identification. Thank you Chris :D .

 

I'm not sure how to interpret the lack of responses. If I violated any expected protocols then please educate me. I'm not a collector (yet), but a huge fan of the art of Nihonto. The wakizashi we found in the back of the trunk has been great instrument for an education I would never had if not found. I now have much more appreciation in the preservation of the authentic Japanese swords and realize the importance in the proper preservation of these pieces of art.

 

Hopefully, my getting to know this wakizashi has extended it's life with future collector(s) and provided further education of the Nihonto arts to others. I'm just a passing entity in this piece of history.

 

Bo

[Veli]

Hello Bo!

 

What a fascinating story! I enjoyed reading it!

 

I guess the lack of responses is caused by the fact that it is extremely difficult to say anything definitive of a mumei, shinogi-zukuri, out-of-polish wakizashi, based on photographs only. The older members here are very knowledgeable, but they are just human beings, not omniscient Kami

 

BR, Veli

[bomulder]

Hello Bo!

 

What a fascinating story! I enjoyed reading it!

 

I guess the lack of responses is caused by the fact that it is extremely difficult to say anything definitive of a mumei, shinogi-zukuri, out-of-polish wakizashi, based on photographs only. The older members here are very knowledgeable, but they are just human beings, not omniscient Kami

 

BR, Veli

 

Thank you Veli, for your appreciation of my story on the wakizashi.

 

I thought we were all looking for omniscient Kami and I thought I had found him by discovering him on my tsuba.....LOL! (see my post: Mumei Sho tsuba viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10574)

 

I would love to show off the real thing to people in r/t that could appreciate such, but have not been successful so far as I'm trying though my friend.

 

Thank you for responding. It is better to hear the truth than hear nothing and have wrong assumptions go rampant.

 

Bo

[jamesicus]

I am 82 years old and my Nihonto collecting story is here: viewtopic.php?p=95538#p95538

[Sam Elliott]

Coming up on 49.....lots of research and study......and looking for my first Nihonto. Now if My daughter will quit hitting me with additional college expenses and my wife will quit hitting other peoples German cars with our German cars....my Nihonto education fund will continue to grow. By the by.....I have really (and will continue to) enjoy this forum message board, perhaps more than any other. Lots of good stuff out here.

 

Sam

[kurogane]

I bought my first mumei katana without saya for £5 when I was 15 I am now 62 and have handled thousands of nihonto but can't find any more for £5 any help in this area greatly appreciated.

old guy=yes

sports car=yes

mistress=my wife wont let me but would rather have a pint of guiness

Joe grogan

[zatoichi]

Hi all, I first got interested in Nihonto after visiting my girl friends parents while at college. In there attic was a sword brought back by here grandfather after the war. It was in rough shape after her brothers had used it to cut up boxes and broom handles . So I oiled the blade with sewing machine oil and put it back in its saya, where it probably sits today. This was 1979 and after that I brought every book I could find, ( which was hard to do before the internet ) went to museums, went to shows and auctions ( Dr walter compton at christies ) , and now I have bought my first blade after all these years a tanto, from flee bay . I bought it from a dealer in Japan and sent it to the november shinsa. When I get it back in February I will post some pictures and let the snickering begin.

Justin E

[Kai-Gunto]

Im 42 years old and started collect Japanese swords when I was 11 in 1981.

 

I found recent a perfect sword made by Ogawa Kanekuni ,on a lucky day 1981 on ebay for 89 usd. I really feel this was karma.

 

Japanese swords is my life.

[Adrian]

My first contact with nihonto came in 1992 while I was having a long conversation with a few other art collectors in a small antique shop owned by a friendly chap who didn't minded us hanging out in his place during the evenings.

Suddenly, a guy came in carrying something long wrapped in a leather cover. He opened the cover and pulled out a nice looking katana in koshirae.

 

He showed it to the owner of the shop, who was generally clueless about weapons (his expertise domains being paintings and old furniture) and who offered him next to nothing without even looking at the blade. ( I think he just didn't wanted anything to do with it). The guy made a face that said everything and started putting the katana back in the cover. Then the owner of the shop asked us if we have any interest in this item. One older guy, who knew a few thing about ancient weapons (and who was also known as being a really sharp bargain hunter) looked carefully at the blade and offered the guy 200$. Obviously the guy knew it was worth more, so he started again to pack it.

At this point I asked to see it. Was pretty much clueless about nihonto at that time but the katana really screamed quality and I already had the older guy's offer in mind (from what I knew about him it ment that the sword was worth at least 800$ on a fast sale). So I asked the guy how much he wanted for the katana and he said with a rather faint voice 500$. Which clearly ment that I could have it for 300, maximum 350$.

I had the money in my pocket and was getting ready to offer 300 when I realised that, up to the point, I looked only at the sword but barelly gave a look to the seller. So I started to look and I realised he was one of those people who by no means could have inherited this item. On top of that, he was practically unable to look me in the eyes (keep in mind that I was fresh out the University at the time, while this guy was well in his 30's) . So, acting on impulse, I just handed him back the sword saying it was too much.

 

Obviously, I had regrets for about 10 years. After all weird things happen and sometimes idiots find treasures in granma's attic. At a point I even bought (cheap) a WWII naval Japanese sword, even if I totally knew it wasn't nihonto, just to take the damn "missed opportunity" out of my mind. Then, I met the Japanese ambassador in my country at a reception and, while talking about his experience in the country, he told me that 10 years ago, while he was a recently appointed attache, he had a daishō stolen from his rented appartment by someone who climbed the first floor balcony. While I never saw the wakizashi, the timing made me pretty sure that I took the right decision back in the day.

 

 

This incident somehow put me off for a while, but then, with the rise of the Internet market, I realised that it was possible to purchase nihonto in a legally safe manner. I started reading a bit about the subject, but didn't really picked it up until last year.

[templar44]

I started collecting nihonto when I was 25 years of age. I am currently 49. It fly's quickly! If you can bear it I will give some of my own thoughts on the topic and the reason why clubs and to a degree the shows are middle aged and up.

 

A. TIME: The subject requires study. A lifetime is not enough. That is why I like it and have stuck with it. There is no quick fix with Japanese sword study. There is always something new around the corner. However those interested in the Readers Digest version soon become disinterested. The attention span must be there. Therefore younger students starting out in their lives may find it difficult to put the attention required into the subject at that busy time in their lives.

 

B. MONEY: Without trying to flout the obvious this study requires money. Not just the swords are expensive. Look at the cost of books. Ask a 17 to 25 year old to spend a thousand dollars on Tanobe Sensei's book. Especially when they can't read it. That thousand dollars is a lot of gas and partial insurance cost. You can't drive a sword to your girlfriends place. (I have experienced this conundrum. It was most frustrating!) What is hardest to understand about all art is that it is not about the money.

 

C. DECEIT: This goes hand in hand with money. As soon as anything has the potential for large value the vultures circle in and are prepared to rip the unknowing apart. The vultures develop their techniques over time to appear legitimate and get profit from your lack of knowledge. They pass themselves off as experts, teachers or reputable dealers. They will use phrases like "It's been in a fire." Or, " He's not a bad smith, but look at what I have here! By the way I have a client who wants a Gunto mounted sword. I could sell yours to him and maybe get your money back for you." I like this one that someone used on me when I was young and naive. "Wakizashi are not what collector's want. They are after katana's. I may be able to sell this but it will not get a great deal. They are worth about half as much compared to katana's. The red laquer on the tang is just old speculation about the smith probably. It means nothing."

Deceit and half truths used on me when my knowledge was limited. Kiss that kanbun Osaka shinto wakizashi goodbye. I needed money for my young family and he was there to make sure I did not get what would really would have helped. When I realized what had taken place I was so disgusted I quit collecting for 5 years. These people are more harmful to the study of this art than all the other factors put together. I don't mind making a mistake. That is par for the course but to be swindled by supposed teachers etc. That is another issue.

In conclusion to deceit, I believe that the older you get the wiser you become and you become less vulnerable to the vultures. Hence you will see more mature collectors in nihonto than say the collectors you might see at a Pokeman card show.

 

D. PASSION: If there is no passion for the topic then interest will fail. Let's face it nihonto is a pretty obscure hobby in the grand scheme of things. If it was not for my passion for these art objects I would have quit studying and collecting after having been swindled. I am passionate about them and went back to them after 5 years with an even greater passion. It is this passion that allows us to overcome the adversity along the way and give us a true satisfaction in our chosen field of study. In retrospect, what I felt were passions that I had up to the age of 25 were fleeting. Now I would classify them as interests. It took the hardship and reward in the study of nihonto to truly define for me what passion for something was. What youth truly has that passion. Only time can tell. I look at my karate dojo as a comparison. There are always new faces but they come and go. Some of the younger faces get old but the older faces remain constant. They have a passion for it.

 

E. KNOWLEDGE: Knowledge is power. Finding the right teachers and information sources are crucial. The Internet is unparalleled for the non Japanese student. When I first started to study nihonto you were so vulnerable to misinformation it was ridiculous. If you could not afford to go to the sword shows and network you were vulnerable. At the time, I could not. These were times where the treasure seekers could capitalize. There are so many Internet sites now that anyone having the least interest in the topic can do research enough in a year to set them on their feet and give them a working knowledge that makes them less vulnerable to the vultures. For the non-Japanese , books are more available now in English than they ever were before. I truly thank all those who put the effort in to accomplish this. Some may criticize them for mistakes and throw jeers from the hecklers box for unknown errors in their research but they are pioneers and true lovers of nihonto that despite criticism attempt to provide knowledge where traditionally there was none. Vultures hate them.

 

In conclusion, it takes a combination of all of the above to understand and truly study nihonto. The above points prove that it is a lot to ask of a young person especially in a field of study that pertains to a supposedly by-gone era and one that is so vast. Movies and action novels help keep the aura of the swords alive but are of little value in educating youth about the true artistic merit of nihonto. These mediums generate interest but is that interest of true benefit? Perhaps. It may lead a small percentage of previously uninformed enthusiasts to start a lifetime of study but I believe the more information becomes readily available and the willingness of honest people to truly teach younger students will provide the stimulus for a greater proportion of younger students in the field of nihonto. Of course they too must have the passion for it or it is all for nought. You can take the horse to water.....!

 

Just my thoughts and hope they will be of benefit,

Tony Martin

[cabowen]

Excellent! Enjoyed reading this. It echoes many of my experiences and opinions...

[Brian]

Well written. May incorporate some of that into the FAQ. Can't argue with any of it, and does make sense.

 

Brian

[templar44]

Thanks for the taking the time to reply.

Tony Martin

[Alex A]

A while ago i rang a dealer about a short koto katana that i had seen for sale. I asked about the length of the blade, i presumed it was an uchi-gatana and i was hoping the guy would tell me what he knows about the blade, it was expensive after all. The best he came up with was "people where smaller then", . A few years ago it would have gone unnoticed, but as you say Tony, knowledge is the key...

 

Alex.

[nsealrob]

Hallo there,

 

I first started to create interest for samurai and there swords at the age of 8 or 10 years old.

It was then..on the couch next to my mother with a lemonade and some chips that i was permitted to watch James Clavell's mini serie, "Shogun" (Back than i didn't know who he was or what shogun meant!!)

Mennn i was so fascinated by those funny looking man with there spears and swords i couldn't sleep that night!!

Next day i went to an uncle of which i knew he had some kind of a collection conserning swords and knives....and there it was...that i for the first time got glamourd by a real samurai sword (some early copy of...???)

But than i was just too young to keep a weapon like that but i have never forgotten the color of that bright shining metal in which i could see myself staring!!

Years past by and so did the ninja's, samurai and drunken kung-fu masters....But still...i was possesed by one thing...that sword who ones belonged to a real samurai!! So i went to our local library and guess what....only one book about Budo mentioned the Japanese sword...briefly (Don't forget, internet was not jet within my reach!!) What could i do!? Living in a small town somewhere in the south of The Netherlands....I started to practise Shotokan Karate, than Pencak Silat, Teakwondo...nunchaku-do and finaly Yugen Budo Kobudo....in which i was introduced to iaido and Katori Shinto Ryu!!

All together it took me 20 years of my life to finaly understand what Samurai and there Katana realy where.... and there i started to collect Japanese swords...first a boken...than an iaito there came my first Shinken.... but still no Nihonto!!!

 

It would take an other 4 years... to get my hand on a "real" Nihonto (It wasn't....it was a non traditional forged shingunto) anyway in my believe to own a real Nihonto i finaly started to read books about nihonto (all my spare money went to satcho .com)

After reading several years and practicing even more years with the Japanese sword i had the feeling i knew quite a bit about Nihonto..!

 

And there i found myself sitting day's and nights behinde my desk and computer....building my own internetsite dedicated to Japan, the Samurai and the Japanese sword... in the Dutch language because i good not understand why there were no books about this subject in my own language!! I wanted to share my passion and knowledge with other people in Holland!

 

Of course it didn't took long people started questioning....and it took even less time to discover i didn't know that much i thoughed i knew! And here i started to get seriously!!

At the age of 36 i joined The Dutch To-ken Society and now 5 years later.....I finaly start to understand what Nihonto is and still i have the feeling i don't know enough to fully participate with all the people here Hahaha..

 

Best regards

Rob Kauffman (nsealrob)

[b.hennick]

Welcome to Nihontomessageboard Rob. Did you ever meet Han Bing Siong? He made many many great contributions to our understanding of swords.