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First Nihonto. Trying to identify its age. More pics added.


oneshot onekill

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I just acquired this sword from a person in Hawaii. He said he bought it years ago at a sword shop in Japan. I already posted the TOROKUSHO in the "Translation" section here. He told me it was from the Muromachi Period but it's Mumei and I have no way of confirming that without letting you all see it. It looks a little tired to me but I'm no expert. I didn't get pictures of the Nakago yet because it's a little hard to get the Tsuka off. The pictures are a little hard to see for two reasons. First, the lighting here is terrible. Second, the blade has oil on it. These are the specs the PO gave me: Length 38.6'' or 98 cm, Blade length 24.8'' or 63 cm, curve 0.6'' or 1.6 cm, Blade width 1.1'' or 2.7 cm.  

sword blade 1.jpg

sword blade 2.jpg

sword blade 3.jpg

sword blade 4.jpg

sword blade 5.jpg

sword blade 6.jpg

sword blade 7.jpg

sword 1.jpg

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Hi John,

I’d guess around Kanbun (1661) it looks to be fairly straight with a smallish point and some widening just before the habaki which is the classic shape from this time. Seems to have fairly finely forged jigane for the most part which also points towards a shinto blade though things are a bit blurry in close-up. 
 

 

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51 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi John,

I’d guess around Kanbun (1661) it looks to be fairly straight with a smallish point and some widening just before the habaki which is the classic shape from this time. Seems to have fairly finely forged jigane for the most part which also points towards a shinto blade though things are a bit blurry in close-up. 
 

 

I'd have to respectfully disagree about it being "Fairly Straight". Perhaps the new pictures show the shape better? Sorry the pictures don't blow up well but larger files require more posts. I was just looking at a website about the "Changes in the shape of the Japanese Sword" https://Japan-forward.com/the-changes-in-the-shape-of-the-Japanese-sword/ and it most closely matched the 6th blade in the illustration which is a Muromachi blade like the PO told me this one was. Of course I could be wrong because who is to say that every sword made in a certain time period follows the exact same dimensions. I realize I'm here asking for opinions so I'll be listening to all of them. No offense meant. 

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1 hour ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi John,

I’d guess around Kanbun (1661) it looks to be fairly straight with a smallish point and some widening just before the habaki which is the classic shape from this time. Seems to have fairly finely forged jigane for the most part which also points towards a shinto blade though things are a bit blurry in close-up. 
 

 

I just looked at a bunch of Kanbun Era swords online and it seems reasonable it could be that as well. I still think my sword curves more in the first 1/3 of the blade. Splitting hairs. 

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I think a few things should be mentioned as to the Edo Shinto attribution (light attribution) but because the jigane and hamon are very Edo Shinto. The Nakago here has been redone and so it is easier to mess with the geomety and try to pass it off as older, shame about those mekugi ana...swiss cheese style so trying to replicate a much much older blade.

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Hi John, 

All good - we’re all relying on our own eyes, the quality of the photos and computer or phone screens. I’m always happy to be wrong where I’ve marked a sword down. 
 

If you place a tape measure along the back of the blade from the tip to the mune machi and take a picture of that it’ll give a better view. 
 

As Jimmy says though, it looks like the tang may have had a shave on the underside either to create the appearance of greater age or perhaps to suggest that it was made in Soshu province  either or both of which might inflate its selling price. 

Let’s see what others think. 

 

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3 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

I think a few things should be mentioned as to the Edo Shinto attribution (light attribution) but because the jigane and hamon are very Edo Shinto. The Nakago here has been redone and so it is easier to mess with the geomety and try to pass it off as older, shame about those mekugi ana...swiss cheese style so trying to replicate a much much older blade.

See... that's why I come here. I would have never even thought about the Nakago being messed with. I'll get a closer look at it and see if any of the edges look cleaner than the rest or like one is flatter than it should be. I assume if you remove material the finish will reflect not looking as old.

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3 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

I think a few things should be mentioned as to the Edo Shinto attribution (light attribution) but because the jigane and hamon are very Edo Shinto. The Nakago here has been redone and so it is easier to mess with the geomety and try to pass it off as older, shame about those mekugi ana...swiss cheese style so trying to replicate a much much older blade.

I agree that I have seen this style of Hamon more on Edo Blades. I guess I'm just trying to cling to the older Muromachi Era that I was told it was by the PO.

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22 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi John,

I’d guess around Kanbun (1661) it looks to be fairly straight with a smallish point and some widening just before the habaki which is the classic shape from this time. Seems to have fairly finely forged jigane for the most part which also points towards a shinto blade though things are a bit blurry in close-up. 
 

 

I definitely think this is a better assessment of the age than what I was told by the PO. I've looked at a Ton of Kanbun timeframe blades in the last two days and The main thing that sticks out to me is the large sweeping Hamon and the look of the Hada on the swords I've seen. Also the overall curvature of the blade. I think I was clinging to the "Muromachi" timeframe because to me older was better. I'm still very happy with the sword and thankful for the information I've been able to gather here. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in the monetary value of my sword. The moment I saw this sword it "spoke to me". I'm happy it wasn't too expensive for me to afford (although my wife may disagree... LOL!).  

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So I showed the Nakago to a friend of mine who frankly, is the one who has re-kindled my love of Japanese swords. Unbeknownst to me, he has a collection of some very impressive swords ranging in value from $6500 to well over $10,000 (all papered) and he has been bringing them to the shop here to show them to me. We looked at the Nakago of one of his papered Edo swords and loosely compared how it looked on the top and bottom edges to my sword and we've both come to the conclusion that nothing appears to have been done to the top or bottom edges of the Nakago of my sword. At least not that we can tell. I've also been looking at a lot of Kanbun period swords online and several of them have a Nakago that looks a lot like mine. Here are pics of the bottom edge of my sword as well as an online picture of another sword from the same time period. I'd like to know what aspects say it has been altered? Thank you again for the knowledge!

Nakago.jpg

Nakago 1.jpg

early edo sword.jpg

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I don't think this is a Kanbun blade, it should have been more straight... My guess would be early shinshinto or late shinto, by the color of the rust....Also the tip of the nakago definitely had a slight touch to fit the new tsuka..

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Okan said:

I don't think this is a Kanbun blade, it should have been more straight... My guess would be early shinshinto or late shinto, by the color of the rust....Also the tip of the nakago definitely had a slight touch to fit the new tsuka..

 

 

So we're getting newer and newer with the age assessments. I'm going stop listening to opinions now. It's like A$$holes, everyone has one. I'm starting to feel like I did when I got screwed over years ago buy a Sword "expert" who was doing me a favor.  

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2 minutes ago, oneshot onekill said:

So we're getting newer and newer with the age assessments. I'm going stop listening to opinions now. It's like A$$holes, everyone has one. I'm starting to feel like I did when I got screwed over years ago buy a Sword "expert" who was doing me a favor.  

 

When you ask a question, what else you expect to hear? It's not easy to age swords by their photos.

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10 minutes ago, oneshot onekill said:

So we're getting newer and newer with the age assessments. I'm going stop listening to opinions now. It's like A$$holes, everyone has one. I'm starting to feel like I did when I got screwed over years ago buy a Sword "expert" who was doing me a favor.  

I think the smarter road is to ask questions with pictures before you buy, will save you a lot of heartache 

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33 minutes ago, Okan said:

 

When you ask a question, what else you expect to hear? It's not easy to age swords by their photos.

I'm sorry. But someone else told me it was too straight to be what the PO said it was so based on that and some other factors he determined it was likely Kanbun. I saw what he meant so I agreed. Now you're telling me it's not straight enough to be Kanbun so it has to be something "newer". Couldn't be something "older". I have looked at hundreds of different era swords (granted it was online) so I'm just frustrated. No personal offense meant.  

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17 minutes ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

I think the smarter road is to ask questions with pictures before you buy, will save you a lot of heartache 

No heartache here. I bought this sword because I loved it. That's really all that matters. It was also very inexpensive. (I didn't want to reveal that initially because I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to "value" it to sell it and make money). I don't care what it's worth or not worth. It spoke to me. 

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55 minutes ago, oneshot onekill said:

So I showed the Nakago to a friend of mine who frankly, is the one who has re-kindled my love of Japanese swords. Unbeknownst to me, he has a collection of some very impressive swords ranging in value from $6500 to well over $10,000 (all papered) and he has been bringing them to the shop here to show them to me. We looked at the Nakago of one of his papered Edo swords and loosely compared how it looked on the top and bottom edges to my sword and we've both come to the conclusion that nothing appears to have been done to the top or bottom edges of the Nakago of my sword. At least not that we can tell. I've also been looking at a lot of Kanbun period swords online and several of them have a Nakago that looks a lot like mine. Here are pics of the bottom edge of my sword as well as an online picture of another sword from the same time period. I'd like to know what aspects say it has been altered? Thank you again for the knowledge!

Nakago.jpg

Nakago 1.jpg

early edo sword.jpg

Look (with thou spectacles) i have noooo idea why people don't spend a whole lot more time learning that Nakago are as important as kissaki and everrrrything in-between. 

 

The nakago on this sword is cut straight at the bottom first sign of shortening (for the record i placed this as Edo Shinto, no reference to Kanbun, but regardless) this is an Edo Shinto blade that has a nakago cut straight. There was an artistic expression on the entirety of swords at this time so you can literally look at the nakago of a shinto blade and isolate (very close, perhaps not exactly) what school it comes from, so why cut it down? Why have it unsigned, most shinto blades are signed and 98% of the best shinto blades have a single mekugi ana this has 3 swiss cheese style ones indicative of an attempted passing for an older sword. However the jigane and hamon have zero affiliation with koto blades.

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John, 

You’ve come on here looking for opinions and you’ve been given some. If you don’t like them submit the blade to shinsa and get a definitive opinion. 
 

For me there’s a point in the tang on the ha side just above the mekugi ana where the taper of the tang changes and it looks unnatural. The nakago Jiri is cut straight across and the nakago looks out of proportion to the blade. It’s about 7cm short of standard length for a shinto blade so I’d guess that it has been shortened and the tang shaped like this for whatever reason. 
 

The problem you have is that you’ve spent money on something you had inadequate knowledge of. You didn’t need mine or anyone else’s opinions on this - what you needed was to know enough to be able to see the blade potentially had an issue and to avoid it. 

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3 minutes ago, oneshot onekill said:

I'm sorry. But someone else told me it was too straight to be what the PO said it was so based on that and some other factors he determined it was likely Kanbun. Now you're telling me it's not straight enough to be Kanbun so it has to be something "newer". Couldn't be something "older". I have looked at hundreds of different era swords (granted it was online) so I'm just frustrated. No personal offense meant.  

 

Non taken. But please, first thing you have to do is to enjoy it. You have an authentic Japanese Sword. Being older doesn't make it more precious or more expensive. As I said, it's not easy to age by their pictures. The last picture you shared looks Kanbun, but your is not *that straight. Which is fine, unless the seller advertised it as a Kanbun.

 

That rust on nakago doesn't seem very dark to me..(again, might be the pictures) So koto is out of the question.. I also don't know why it has 3 mekugi-ana...perhaps someone wanted to make it look older than it is? So my bet will be early to late shinshinto...

 

 

Attaching a shinshinto nakago..In shinshinto period, they made koto looking blades in different shapes.

 

 

 

 

 

P1140752.JPG

P1140789.JPG

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One of the most common things new collectors fall for, is age. They want it as old as possible, and the thought that something might be Shinto instead of a Koto horrifies them. They ignore the fact that most times early Shinto are far better than late Koto, where there were many kazuuchimono. In fact, age has nothing to do with desirability (within reason) and you shouldn't be worried about when it was made, worry about the quality.

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1 hour ago, Okan said:

 

Non taken. But please, first thing you have to do is to enjoy it. You have an authentic Japanese Sword. Being older doesn't make it more precious or more expensive. As I said, it's not easy to age by their pictures. The last picture you shared looks Kanbun, but your is not *that straight. Which is fine, unless the seller advertised it as a Kanbun.

 

That rust on nakago doesn't seem very dark to me..(again, might be the pictures) So koto is out of the question.. I also don't know why it has 3 mekugi-ana...perhaps someone wanted to make it look older than it is? So my bet will be early to late shinshinto...

 

 

Attaching a shinshinto nakago..In shinshinto period, they made koto looking blades in different shapes.

 

 

 

 

 

P1140752.JPG

P1140789.JPG

The seller bought it years ago at a sword shop in Japan and told me he was told by an "expert" it was Muromachi. I've abandoned that period for several reasons. I do love it and it's not super important what others think of the age. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning and in many ways it's not making sense or not "holding water" to me. The Nakago is a very dark brown, almost black and has a fair amount of bumps and lumps. In person, it's as dark and similar to my friend's papered sword that is much older. I can even almost see parts of a Mei (lines and shapes) but not enough to mention. You cannot make out any file marks under the rust like I usually see on newer blades. I thought the 3 holes were just because different Koshirae was fitted to it. I would have never suspected that was an attempt to make it seem older. The Nakago is not straight on the bottom. I think the camera angle may be playing tricks. It looks almost exactly like the Nakago in the picture of the sword I posted with the Nakago pictures. The patina is the same everywhere and there are no indications that the bottom edge of the Nakago has been altered at all. I verified that by showing it to a friend who knows far more than I do. I also don't believe it has been shortened because there is nothing to indicate that based on what I've read.

I did do a LOT of research. Both years ago and more recently. I've read every article and link that have been sent to me. Most of them before I got this sword. 

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25 minutes ago, Brian said:

One of the most common things new collectors fall for, is age. They want it as old as possible, and the thought that something might be Shinto instead of a Koto horrifies them. They ignore the fact that most times early Shinto are far better than late Koto, where there were many kazuuchimono. In fact, age has nothing to do with desirability (within reason) and you shouldn't be worried about when it was made, worry about the quality.

Thank you for that! I get it. Initially, I did hope that the blade I fell in love with was also as old as the seller said it was so I was clinging to that. Bottom line is that I love this sword. Like I've said several times, it spoke to me. 

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59 minutes ago, oneshot onekill said:

The seller told me he was told by an "expert" it was Muromachi.

 

 

" If " this sword is a Muromachi period sword, it " might be " on the early side rather than later based on it's shape. One of the most difficult parts of kantei is imagining what a sword looked like before undergoing changes. Several things catch my attention about this sword. The first was that the curvature continues into the nakago. Secondly, if you look at the hamon's continuation past the hamachi and into the nakago, it suggests that this may have been once a considerably longer sword. Add these thoughts to the shape of the sword especially as it curves followed by straightening towards the pointed end, that suggests earlier. One of the problems here is that the current condition of the polish doesn't reveal much in the way of what's hiding. On that point it should always be kept in mind that previous polishes and alterations may not be doing the sword any favors. Having a window opened is a good approach to confirm and or dispel notions.

As you were.

 

Regards,

Franco

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I see 'Muneyaki', unless the light is playing tricks.

As I'm not an expert I can't confirm whether koto blades had that 'feature' at all, feel free to correct me. I haven't seen one yet.

 

Suriage shinto with heavily modified nakago?

 

Cheers

 

J.

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34 minutes ago, Darkcon said:

I see 'Muneyaki', unless the light is playing tricks.

As I'm not an expert I can't confirm whether koto blades had that 'feature' at all, feel free to correct me. I haven't seen one yet.

 

They do. 

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1 hour ago, Darkcon said:

I see 'Muneyaki', unless the light is playing tricks.

As I'm not an expert I can't confirm whether koto blades had that 'feature' at all, feel free to correct me. I haven't seen one yet.

 

Suriage shinto with heavily modified nakago?

 

Cheers

 

J.

Thank you! I wondered about that and wondered if it was just a poor polish job. I never knew what it was called when the Hamon came through there although I have seen it in pictures online. Just couldn't find any this week.

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