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unsigned sword, curious about it!


vieira

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18 hours ago, AntiquarianCat said:

I would refer you to the many studies done by M. Yaso, because he had access to modern xray technology it is possible to get a very accurate elemental composition without destroying a sword.  https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Study-of-strength-and-toughness-in-Japanese-sword-Yaso-Takaiwa/f75e6d7a92043c923999763505fdbc726329cc26
A free version can be found here 

[International Journal of Materials and Product Technology vol. 42 iss. 1_2] Yaso, M._ Takaiwa, T._ Minagi, Y._ Kanaizumi, T._ Kubota, K._ No - Study of strength and toughness in Japanese sword produced from Tamahagane steel by - libgen.li.pdf 479.67 kB · 1 download

7A1B0CAA-3D46-45AA-B7EC-352CE8550DCA.thumb.jpeg.7fd30d8c03850f592b587e5f5dd86219.jpeg

Remarkably enough Yaso found their smiths did such a good job at stamping away impurities that it holds up well even by modern standards.


That the spine and ji have milder steel is probably intended for flexibility as one of the likely ways they made utsuri required mild steel and that certainly made them more resilient to breakage. Probably important given the high 50s to mid 60s hrc yaso and others found for edge hardness.

As for western swords the carbon content might not be especially relevant. I hope you will forgive this non peer reviewed source but study of western swords shows an edge hardness often below 50HRC so I don’t know what the point of mentioning a high carbon content everywhere is; it is possible because as you mentioned Europe was careless in preserving its swords surface and so most medieval have extensive damage to edge that that study is skewed by the harder layers being lost or mineralized but at the least it shows there isn’t much apparent effect from a uniformly high C.

 

This is in no way to say Europe did not have equally fantastic blades, just that the science doesn’t support most of these metallurgy claims. By the way some of the best regarded European traditions like Toledo developed an oddly similar knack for having milder steel in the core of their swords https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328748284_Welding_by_Hot_Forging_of_Two_Carbon_Steels_for_the_Manufacture_of_Spanish_and_Japanese_Weapons

There are interesting parallels. Perhaps some kind of convergent evolution?


And regarding polishing being aggressive. My understanding is that if the blade condition is good little more than a finishing polish is needed. Which might remove a few microns of steel. Case in point many treasure swords and temple swords are virtually unchanged from when they were made. Deeper polish is only done when there is a serious problem like rust and even then they try to limit what’s removed.
 

Preventing rust has served to preserve blades and their surface. You have to remember even black rust “patina” is not stable on a generational timescale. Still going to chemically grow and turn useful edge and surface into encrustations, and mineralization obliterates whatever nice metallurgical effects we would want to admire or study. The problem is so serious that the late Darcy endorsed oiling nakago to arrest mineralization. I can only imagine how unfortunate it would be for the sword and any study thereof  if we let the edge surface mineralize away. https://blog.yuhindo.com/oil-your-nakago/?sfw=pass1651334746

 

 

Hello,

 

The Japanese swords are indeed the result of a very complex fabrication and have a great quality, the xray study of the first paper is interesting and valid, today we already have available portable XRFs too, it would be interesting to scan some swords to see their composition and compare to european of the same period.

 

The second paper for me is much less valid, Toledo blades were famous for their quality until the medieval times, the city then was completed devasted by the bubonic plague, most of the swordsmiths die or leave the city, only centuries later the city restart the fabrication of swords, all the old knowledge was lost because as i explained earlier the europeans did not documented the fabrication process of weapons, it was a state secret. To compare a 19th/20th Toledo blade with a Japanese one or Compare a Toledo blade with a Soligen one, the Toledo is of inferior quality. To do a fair compare we would have to get one of the legendaries Toledo blades, XIV/XV centuries.

 

About the polish process, i am still trying to understand the science behind it, i know there is a fantastic book that may give that knowledge to understand the basics at least "The Connoisseurs Book Of Japanese Swords" but i was unable to find it and a acceptable price, in amazon they are asking 400 euros for it....

 

Now touching a very sensitive issue for any Japanese swords colector , the real superiority (or not) in battle of Japanese swords and Samurais against other warriors! In that case we have to study the history of the first encounters betwen Japanese Samurais and Europeans! The Portuguese were the first Europeans to reach Japan, there are chronicles of fights betwen the Portuguese and the Samurais and for what i came across, the Samurais had many losts, the Samurai situation was so bad that a new special kind of Japanese sword was made to fight the Portuguese! (ANY PICTURES OF THIS SWORDS ?? I DID NOT FIND, I KNOW THEY ARE VERY RARE). Also at some time the Portuguese were forbidden to take the rapiers ashore because of quantity of samurais they killed. The Portuguese chronicles are in obvious old Portuguese, but some persons have translate some parts:

 

"Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”"

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

 

 

 

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On 5/16/2022 at 6:19 PM, vieira said:

Ok! but it was only cotton! the blade was not scratch our wound in any way! i would love to know the diference betwen european and Japanese processes, i am portuguese, we portuguese were the first europeans ones to reach Japan, we battle samurais and win most of the time, samurais were not used to fight the european style with rapiers and left hand daggers! But i admit these Japanese blades are something else in sharpness, european blades are not so sharp.

 

Tks

 

Vieira

🤣🤣🤣

 

Please don't make me laugh. That's like  me saying us British beat all Europeans and we know how to  bull fight better than Spaniards 

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2 hours ago, vieira said:

 

Hello,

 

The Japanese swords are indeed the result of a very complex fabrication and have a great quality, the xray study of the first paper is interesting and valid, today we already have available portable XRFs too, it would be interesting to scan some swords to see their composition and compare to european of the same period.

 

The second paper for me is much less valid, Toledo blades were famous for their quality until the medieval times, the city then was completed devasted by the bubonic plague, most of the swordsmiths die or leave the city, only centuries later the city restart the fabrication of swords, all the old knowledge was lost because as i explained earlier the europeans did not documented the fabrication process of weapons, it was a state secret. To compare a 19th/20th Toledo blade with a Japanese one or Compare a Toledo blade with a Soligen one, the Toledo is of inferior quality. To do a fair compare we would have to get one of the legendaries Toledo blades, XIV/XV centuries.

 

About the polish process, i am still trying to understand the science behind it, i know there is a fantastic book that may give that knowledge to understand the basics at least "The Connoisseurs Book Of Japanese Swords" but i was unable to find it and a acceptable price, in amazon they are asking 400 euros for it....

 

Now touching a very sensitive issue for any Japanese swords colector , the real superiority (or not) in battle of Japanese swords and Samurais against other warriors! In that case we have to study the history of the first encounters betwen Japanese Samurais and Europeans! The Portuguese were the first Europeans to reach Japan, there are chronicles of fights betwen the Portuguese and the Samurais and for what i came across, the Samurais had many losts, the Samurai situation was so bad that a new special kind of Japanese sword was made to fight the Portuguese! (ANY PICTURES OF THIS SWORDS ?? I DID NOT FIND, I KNOW THEY ARE VERY RARE). Also at some time the Portuguese were forbidden to take the rapiers ashore because of quantity of samurais they killed. The Portuguese chronicles are in obvious old Portuguese, but some persons have translate some parts:

 

"Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”"

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

 

 

 

image.png

image.png

Hi Vieira 

 

I'm interested and a MA grad in Japanese studies and a martial artist. The only battle I know between the two was a naval battle which the Portuguese won( expectedly). Can you kindly send me the link to what you posted so I can  get a closer look. 

 

Thanks 

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On 5/18/2022 at 4:37 AM, vieira said:

I never said that Japanese swords are inferior! i only said most of the natural iron in Japan is of less quality than in some other places in the world! that is a different thing, a pure geological issue! but even with that limitation Japanese craftsman invented technology to make good steel and good weapons! Comparing these swords quality to the European, most European swords are of inferior construction quality than the Japanese. The Europeans had the advantage of having good steel without needing to do a wasteful process like the Japanese and of course there were also very good craftsman in Europe. One interesting thing is that Japanese documented the fabrication process of the swords, Europeans didn't, we know very little about the fabrication process of the best European swords, in most places it was strictly forbidden do to documentation of the building process, it was considered a state secret and so the knowledge was passed only by word between generations of families and eventually lost with the arrived of firearms.

 

I currently study the blade i post earlier, today if i have time i'am gone measure all the blade at different points.

 

Yesterday i was analyzing the sharp edge and i encounter 2 faults, the blade has damages in 2 places, i guess from knocking another object, maybe in battle ? who knows!! my question is, the Japanese polish process will fix these kind of things ? or this blade is either the way damage for life ? How often this kind of damage appears in old Japanese swords ?

 

Tks all again.

 

Regards,

 

Bruno Vieira

damage2.jpeg

damage1.jpeg


Oh! I was not responding specifically to your claims about the iron (which are true, Japanese iron sands are inferior.. thus the long process they made to overcome it). I was merely responding to the post before me about 16th century Japanese swords specifically! As for the damage on the blade shown, they appear relatively minor and as long as the hamon doesn't dip below them, a good togishi will be able to remove them without issue.

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Indeed, I would like it if Yaso added European blades to his next studies. The key takeaway point from those to what I want to say is note the very well controlled hardness of that bizen sword? Ha over 60hrc while the rest of the blade like the Ji is softer and more elastic?

Well, low carbon on the core and where the utsuri happens seems to be a very deliberate thing. If you just had a uniformly hard sword like some late Shinto that massahide complained about it’s more likely to break. So Japanese swords having mild steel is part of their break resistance not a bug.

 

Perhaps the European swords on the hardness “study” (as I said the poor condition of swords might have compromised study) I linked could be high carbon because on a balance they never get near as hard but if you fully hardened a big stick of all 1.0% carbon  you’d get brittle. So limiting hard to the edge and supporting it with a soft spine makes sense. I would like it if they could look at older Toledo swords but my understanding is the non edged parts being milder was a long running feature of that tradition too and gave them shock resistance.


As for age of discovery wars and their relevance in weapons use, I have heard of the Wako-European battles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nossa_Senhora_da_Graça_incident

seems to be typical. The reason wako and Arima’s men had trouble on a Carack is not that a Japanese sword is bad for swashbuckling. It’s that a little dinghy isn’t good for boarding a big ship. In this case laking a galleon of your own and canons probably is the deficiency. Case in point the Dutch eventually defeated Portugal and took most of their eastern possessions (so they can’t be weak) but were then themselves thoroughly defeated by the Ming Chinese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Dutch_conflicts

 

Why? It’s probably not that Dutch arms were better than their Portuguese equivalents or that the Chinese jian was spectacular compared to Dutch side swords. Instead just boils down to the side with more organization guns and resources. That said both the Yuan dynasty and the Ming chronicles of their Imijin war single out the Japanese sword for respect. So if the guys who clobbered the Dutch who clobbered the Portuguese think it’s a scary sword to get cut by I’d listen to them.

 

There is indeed a type of sword associated with Japanese pirates and swashbucklers. They’re Kaifu swords https://to-ken.uk/onewebmedia/Kaifu 19 05 2016v1.pdf very distinctive although they were around long before Europeans arrived.

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2 hours ago, Paz said:

🤣🤣🤣

 

Please don't make me laugh. That's like  me saying us British beat all Europeans and we know how to  bull fight better than Spaniards 

 

The only thing you may laught (or not) is that were the Portuguese and not the British to discover most the unknown world at the time, for more than 200 years portuguese ruled the seas and many places in the world, the british, the dutch and every other europeans are later stuff.

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1 hour ago, Paz said:

Hi Vieira 

 

I'm interested and a MA grad in Japanese studies and a martial artist. The only battle I know between the two was a naval battle which the Portuguese won( expectedly). Can you kindly send me the link to what you posted so I can  get a closer look. 

 

Thanks 

Most reports of the europeans are in portuguese and spanish archives in old portuguese and old spanish. There is a book "The Christian Century in Japan (1549-1650), University of California Press, 1951" that has a chapter in 1610 where 40 portugueses fight agains 3000 samurais, you can start with that. Most persons don't know but the Portuguese enslaved Japanese, that was one of the reasons that Portuguese eventualy got expell from Japan, at some time it was often to bring Japanese girls and childs to sell them in Lisbon to rich families. Portuguese also sold black slaves to Japanese, Yasuke the first black samurai was indeed sold by Portuguese. Portuguese were military superior and make some deals with certains Japanese clans, to support them agains't rival clans, it was the Portuguese who brought the firearms to Japan to TANEGASHIMA island, still today they celebrate every year this event. Check this picture of a Japanese/PORTUGUESE armour mix.

90306386_2539199916399504_8430309409434894336_n.jpg

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58 minutes ago, AntiquarianCat said:

Indeed, I would like it if Yaso added European blades to his next studies. The key takeaway point from those to what I want to say is note the very well controlled hardness of that bizen sword? Ha over 60hrc while the rest of the blade like the Ji is softer and more elastic?

Well, low carbon on the core and where the utsuri happens seems to be a very deliberate thing. If you just had a uniformly hard sword like some late Shinto that massahide complained about it’s more likely to break. So Japanese swords having mild steel is part of their break resistance not a bug.

 

Perhaps the European swords on the hardness “study” (as I said the poor condition of swords might have compromised study) I linked could be high carbon because on a balance they never get near as hard but if you fully hardened a big stick of all 1.0% carbon  you’d get brittle. So limiting hard to the edge and supporting it with a soft spine makes sense. I would like it if they could look at older Toledo swords but my understanding is the non edged parts being milder was a long running feature of that tradition too and gave them shock resistance.


As for age of discovery wars and their relevance in weapons use, I have heard of the Wako-European battles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nossa_Senhora_da_Graça_incident

seems to be typical. The reason wako and Arima’s men had trouble on a Carack is not that a Japanese sword is bad for swashbuckling. It’s that a little dinghy isn’t good for boarding a big ship. In this case laking a galleon of your own and canons probably is the deficiency. Case in point the Dutch eventually defeated Portugal and took most of their eastern possessions (so they can’t be weak) but were then themselves thoroughly defeated by the Ming Chinese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Dutch_conflicts

 

Why? It’s probably not that Dutch arms were better than their Portuguese equivalents or that the Chinese jian was spectacular compared to Dutch side swords. Instead just boils down to the side with more organization guns and resources. That said both the Yuan dynasty and the Ming chronicles of their Imijin war single out the Japanese sword for respect. So if the guys who clobbered the Dutch who clobbered the Portuguese think it’s a scary sword to get cut by I’d listen to them.

 

There is indeed a type of sword associated with Japanese pirates and swashbucklers. They’re Kaifu swords https://to-ken.uk/onewebmedia/Kaifu 19 05 2016v1.pdf very distinctive although they were around long before Europeans arrived.

From what i research, and not talking of specific "Portuguese Swords" because Portuguese swords were equal do their european, for example the blades used by Portuguese were usualy German/Solingen, Portuguese did not have tradition in forging blades, they bought from Solingen, the superiority of the european arms in battle was related with the design, a katana needs a very near aproach to the enemy, Portuguese used what was called "7 palm rapiers" with 140-150 cms, this diferente in size would give superiority to Portuguese. Also the katanas were unable to penetrate the portuguese armours and the rapiers having long and thin blades could penetrate the Japanese armour, specialy the holes between armour components.

 

The Dutch defeating the Portuguese is a complete diferent thing, it happen in another time period and the dutch were never outnumbered, it was completly the oposite! Its a complex subject that envolves the fact that the Portuguese king disapeared in a battle in africa, it had no soons and the next person in line of succession was the also Spanish king "Philip I", so we got ruled by the Spanish...

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

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1 hour ago, ChrisW said:


Oh! I was not responding specifically to your claims about the iron (which are true, Japanese iron sands are inferior.. thus the long process they made to overcome it). I was merely responding to the post before me about 16th century Japanese swords specifically! As for the damage on the blade shown, they appear relatively minor and as long as the hamon doesn't dip below them, a good togishi will be able to remove them without issue.

Hello,

 

I talked with a professional tagishi in europe, he said its possible, i would probably send him the blade in september, it can take up to 6 months all process, and its not cheap but.... i think this blade deserves it! after being in a wall for more than 200 years!

 

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

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I do not know of any Japanese trained professional togishi in Europe (but neither do I generally pay attention to that sort of thing for Europe). I would ask this guy if he underwent the 10 or so year apprenticeship in Japan first and also ask who trained him. If he didn't, I would consider elsewhere. Don't be too quick to have it sent off; if it is worth restoring, it is worth doing right the first time.


As for the Portugeuse bringing matchlocks to Japan. That much is true; however, it was not exactly what you'd call a normal trade deal. The sailors that landed on Tanegashima island were shipwrecked there. So the story goes, they were given supplies to fix their ship and sail home, but were required to give some of their matchlocks over in trade. The Japanese then copied the design with some adjustments of their own and within a few short decades, there were thousands of them made in the country.

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Yes, that is indeed the Nossa Senhora da Graça battle you’re speaking off. As I mentioned Arima’s men had little dingies instead of ships and obviously no canons. There is no dispute that pirates and statelets (not counting a few like Date) lacked the organization to field ships and artillery. now battles between organized states (Ming Dutch wars and Imijin war between Ming and Hideyoshi) are a different beast and probably show what each party was capable of.

 

I’ve heard that many Daimyo who lacked wealth would instead sell their own and for some reason the Iberian Jesuit accepted that trade. Which along with being defeated by the Dutch probably did much to get them removed from Japan.

 

Regarding the Dutch and the Portuguese wars, they span the early 1600’s exactly the same time as the Nossa Senhora da Graça incident. And indeed the Dutch helped push Tokugawa into expelling Portugal. So yes, it is fair to link them with that larger conflict. My point is not that Iberians were bad fighters at all, it’s just that as you say organization and logistics were key. I would not be surprised if thanks to all its past conflicts Iberians were man for man the better swashbucklers but it didn’t matter as more supplies and organization meant the Dutch soundly defeated them(in the Far East). The same way wako lacked the organization and arms to sink warships the scattered Portuguese possessions in the Far East lacked the means to hold out.

 

And I see the Ming easily defeating the Dutch as more evidence for that view: thanks to Confucius China was not a militaristic society and yet they easily beat the Dutch who had easily beat Portugal. Why? Much better logistics and organization(scattered colonies versus a regional superpower with near unlimited access to resources). Note that despite lacking sea power Toyotomi’s men almost won the Imijin war against the same Ming, why? Organization. Since Nobunaga they were well equipped and using pike and shot tactics oddly reminiscent of Maurice of Nassau. And why did Toyotomi lose? Logistic problems exacerbated by the Koreans and Chinese winning control of the sea.

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On 5/20/2022 at 6:32 PM, ChrisW said:

I do not know of any Japanese trained professional togishi in Europe (but neither do I generally pay attention to that sort of thing for Europe). I would ask this guy if he underwent the 10 or so year apprenticeship in Japan first and also ask who trained him. If he didn't, I would consider elsewhere. Don't be too quick to have it sent off; if it is worth restoring, it is worth doing right the first time.


As for the Portugeuse bringing matchlocks to Japan. That much is true; however, it was not exactly what you'd call a normal trade deal. The sailors that landed on Tanegashima island were shipwrecked there. So the story goes, they were given supplies to fix their ship and sail home, but were required to give some of their matchlocks over in trade. The Japanese then copied the design with some adjustments of their own and within a few short decades, there were thousands of them made in the country.

Without revealing his name (i dont know if its services are public available or not) i can say its from italy and its a authorized tagishi with 33 years exprience and traditional shool, a top european colector recomended him to me.

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

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A quick google search yielded Massimo Rossi. He is indeed recognized by the NBTHK as a polisher whose work is worthy of being judged. If this is the guy you're referring to, then he seems like he might be your best bet in Europe. I can't say I've seen his work, but he did indeed do the apprenticeship so you should be fine with him if he chooses to take on your piece!

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