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When in doubt - ask somebody more knowledgeable 😎


Grevedk

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Dear NMB members,

 

I am in need of your knowledge - in regard to pinpoint the sword smith (Mei translation) and if possible how that correspond with period and sword dimensions. I fully understand that this post may be a combination of more than one forum, but I will very much appreciate any comments that you may have.
 

I have just acquired a katana with the following dimensions and information:

 

  • Katana sword (Edo period 1600 - 1868) - supposedly 🤔
  • Full length: 105 cm
  • Nagassa: 75,5 cm
  • Sori: 2,5 cm
  • Motohaba: 3,28 cm
  • Motokasane: 0,68 cm
  • Weight of blade: 880 grams 
  • Mei: Tadatsugu
  • Nakago: one Mekugi Ana (drilled hole) 

 

Very nice and heavy sword with a beautiful Harmon that in shape and form correspond well with the middle Edo period (Jokyo and Genroku era between 1684 - 1703). And it is very sharp and in good polish.

 

Question:

 

  • Does the Mei correctly correspond with the signature of “Tadatsugu”?
  • If so - which one, as I find it difficult to identify a smith with that name that made swords around 1684 - 1703?

 

Pictures include sellers (1 + 2) and my own in regard to Mei and Kissaki (3 + 4 + 5 + 6).9CECAC9A-3564-4C4B-9AB0-6CB2CEC37C88.thumb.jpeg.f2ddcd9c5191522db15fbbfff473d56d.jpeg3A7AECB3-585B-43FB-913B-3801B100530A.thumb.jpeg.e17af272d8227c8a635fae2de169a8ea.jpegBEF44380-4919-4128-B55D-B703A3D51453.thumb.jpeg.f9b973b507b98135745ce232d0ffcaca.jpeg

 

I will appreciate all of your comments, reflections and / or potential misgivings if you should have any.

 

best regards

 

Soren

 

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Something like..... Shimizu Tadatsugu [saku] :))

That reasonably well known smith worked a little bit more recently than Edo

Also look at the patina, or lack thereof, of the nakago - that usually also points to how old a sword is, or if it was shortened - when approximately.... Not always accurate as people clean nakago (a big heresy) or repatinate nakago too. But yasurime + mei + patina usually add to up to a decent barometer. 

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Could it be this guy?
 

Quote

Tadatsugu (忠次), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tōkyō – „Tadatsugu saku“ (忠次作), civilian name „Shimizu Chūji“ (清水忠次), born 1921,
he studied from 1963 under Yoshihara Kuniie (吉原国家)


If so, an nice long shinsakuto...nothing wrong. Looks like a good sword in very good polish.

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The Torokusho (registration paper) describes that the katana is Mumei (unsigned). However, the katana has an inscribed name Shimizu Tadatsugu.

So, (1) the Torokusho is not for the katana, or (2) the Mei on the tang was added by someone after its registration.

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Thank you - that is some very valuable insights that you have brought to the “table”. Appreciated 👍

 

I have just taken a picture of my copy of the Torokushu 

C9943050-3970-43A9-BDCC-151A5D04FD7A.thumb.jpeg.d7828df9035cd16bd20b95ba23fde2b1.jpeg

 

I am no expert on either kanji or how these papers should be translated, but length of Nagassa and depth of Sori fits with my first examination 🤔

 

But I guess it should state Mei if it was inscribed from the start?
 

 

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I can not explain the seemingly yellow rust on the tang from the pictures in the original listing from seller. But - in normal light it looks like the picture I have posted.

99E1C8A7-5A4D-4CB8-B23A-7F675CDF3E74.thumb.jpeg.da2bd676b47e12b3bd5692e5cfa6c39f.jpeg

 

And - from what I can tell - the yasurime also seems to correspond with the smith that Brian mentioned - Shimizu Tadatsugu (1921 - 1998) file pattern.

 

The sword and fittings that I have received do seem to be the ones in sellers “pictures”. The only, and obvious, discrepancy is in the Torokusho and concerning Mei or Mumei. Can there be a reasonable explanation to that?
 

/Soren

 

 

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2 hours ago, Grevedk said:

The only, and obvious, discrepancy is in the Torokusho and concerning Mei or Mumei. Can there be a reasonable explanation to that?

 

As Moriyama-san says: 1) the torokusho is for another sword, or 2) the mei was added after the torokusho was issued.

A 3rd possibility is: the person who wrote the torokusho made a mistake. 

 

Either way, Shimizu Tadatsugu is a gendai smith's name, so you have a conundrum. Well, once the sword leaves Japan, the torokusho is returned to the issuing board of education, so the problem of the paperwork is kind of on the back burner for now. If the seller was pitching this as an Edo period blade, I would quiz him regarding the name on the blade. If the seller was using weasel words like "looks like Edo period" or "in the style of Edo period", then the dealer will probably just say that he never claimed the sword was from the Edo period, rather that it only "looked" like an Edo sword. Having said all that, Shimizu Tadatsugu was a good smith, from what I understand. So if the sword's signature is authentic, and the sword is in good condition (which it looks like it is) you should have a nice blade on your hands. I know that the discrepancy between the blade and the registration card is creating an itch that needs to be scratched, but the only way to resolve that is to send it off for appraisal. 

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2 hours ago, SteveM said:

 

If the seller was using weasel words like "looks like Edo period" or "in the style of Edo period", then the dealer will probably just say that he never claimed the sword was from the Edo period, rather that it only "looked" like an Edo sword.

 

Bizen is another word that I don't like people attributing too loosely when selling something. It's either been attributed by a professional sword group, or it is NOT Bizen. Check out the link and how Bungo, I mean Bizen is attributed.   

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/bizen.htm

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Thank you all for taking time and effort to respond. This is the strength of forum’s like this, and I will donate to the board in respect for that collective support 👍

 

And thank you MORIYAMA for reading the Torokusho and pointing out the discrepancy between what it states, and the actual Mei.

 

And Steve - it does itch a bit The sword is apparently well made and in fine condition as is the Saya and Tosugu. But there is always the matter of what you expect to get, what you get, and what you really pay for 🤔

 

Based on that observation and the rest of your valuable input I contacted the seller and give him a few questions to answer. Seller, by the way, runs a business from Italy selling Japanese artifacts which includes Nihonto swords (with or without Hozon certificates) imported directly from Japan.

 

And he has just responded. He apparently sold the sword in commission for a regular customer (client). He recognizes the discrepancies that you all have pointed out, and apologized for having trusted that client, and not checked the correct information him self before submitting the sword to an international auction. He will get in touch with that client and return in order to facilitate a compromise. Then we shall see. I will give you a follow up, when I have one.

 

Enjoy your Easter 🐣 

 

/Soren

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

As promised - a little follow up 😎

 

Based on your valuable input I confronted seller with all the discrepancies that was inconsistent with the auction information that he had provided in the original listing. Seller “fell flat on his face”, and without any fuss admitted that the sword and Saya was not from the Edo-period. Then he gave me an alternate offer and price reduction if I would have the courtesy to cancel (opt out on my purchase) through the auction house (online auctions have a window for regretting a purchase). In short - when I had my initial payment returned from auctioneer, then I could just pay him the sum that he and I had agreed upon, and we would both save the auction fee. All our communication was performed through the auction houses own communications platform, and therefore visible for their internal customer support 😂

 

I refused the transaction, and the sale was terminated as the auction house confirmed that my claim was valid. The sword was returned to seller. Sword and Saya was fine, and in good quality - but all in all it was not what I was looking for.

 

Seller will now have to deal with whatever sanctions (exclusion or fine, or maybe nothing) that the auction house finds to be appropriate.

 

@Brian donation to NMB (#349) in appreciation of both your work, the platform, and the invaluable information gathered through the members willingness to share their knowledge. Thank you 😎👍

 

/Soren

 

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Good evening Okan,

 

That was very interesting link👍

 

Indeed - same sword and same seller, correct translation but as you have noticed not the same Torokusho. This time it has Mei but otherwise with matching Nagassa length and Sori 🤔 Looks like a real “forgery”. 
 

I bought through CataWiki. And I have a feeling that seller may have found it a bit difficult to re-list through or on that platform. I wrote directly to CataWiki senior support with my suspicion that clearly indicted that seller, against all good business conduct, deliberately had used wrong and misleading information in order to secure a sale. With auction fee included the final price was 4300 Euro. Seller later offered to sell for 3000 Euro. 
 

I honestly believe the sword to by traditional made and in fine quality, and Saya was (is) very nice with gold inlaid Mon. Tsuba is very probably late Edo, but the rest of Tosugu is Showa. I am not qualified to judge wether the price is fair and actually a fine deal, but I simply found seller wanting, professional incompetent and so stupidly suspicious :bang: that any further dealings was completely out of the question. 
 

But - I am more the wiser (steep learning curve), and I will find another sword to fulfill my curiosity 🤓

 

/Soren

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