Deep pockets

[Utopianarian]

Bruneau and auctioneers auction earlier today in Rhode Island. I saw ww2 blade up for auction of what appeared to me like a mid kamakura Ichimonji tachi. I don’t think the auction house knew what they had. Apparently somebody out there knew what this blade was. At first it seemed like I would get it for a steal being the estimate was $400-$1200 then last minute a lot of action. I bid up to $16,000 which rose quickly up to $19,000. Someone with deeper pockets than me. I am depressed loosing out on what I think was a rare find. I wanted to go higher on my bid but I would be sleeping on my brothers couch if my wifeknew. Anyways enjoy the pics. If anybody on the board won this auction. I wish them the best.

[NewB]

Wow 

 

 

J.

[Utopianarian]

Yes, I feel sick about loosing this one… I had the money and didn’t think anybody would pay a lot for it. I had to funds to go up to prob $34,000 but who knows… Mr. Deep Pockets might have pushed it to $40,000 then what? This is prob a unverified find that prob could fetch easy 6 figures once papered. Idk 😞

[NewB]

49 minutes ago, Utopianarian said:

Yes, I feel sick about loosing this one… I had the money and didn’t think anybody would pay a lot for it. I had to funds to go up to prob $34,000 but who knows… Mr. Deep Pockets might have pushed it to $40,000 then what? This is prob a unverified find that prob could fetch easy 6 figures once papered. Idk 😞

 

I know how you feel! These dont just pop up randomly, yikes. Sorry man.

 

I would have entered the bidding war to win or help out with the purchase price should have I known about it, honestly. Looks legit to my currently foggy eyes.

 

J.

[Utopianarian]

Yes I agree definitely looks legit to me as well. It wasn’t even represented as an old blade. I didn’t think of that having partnered up for the bidding war. I didn’t think anybody out there saw it as a valuable blade and it would suddenly go that high. I suspect a group of investors purchased it. The same paddle number was buying up all kinds of expensive items. Rare chance that one individual is that well endowed with endless funds. <1% of the population have that kind of dough. This person or group bought up close to half a million worth of high priced top tier items from high priced Brown Bess muskets to rare Scottish sabers to documents from George Washington 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hamon looks very promising, the dual "Ichi" stroke on the Nakago are somewhat dubious though.

[Fuuten]

Seems to be a rather large gamble. Maybe if one were in the position to see it in person it would feel different to me.

[Utopianarian]

I saw that extra ichi, you raise a good point. The blade looks slightly cut down as well. Showing the pic with the habaki pulled back and the hamon still running

[Utopianarian]

There were in house bidders I assume they had a viewing period. Online bidders and took phone bids. I still felt confident on bidding on this one. Others obviously thought the same. Yes it is a gamble or fork over 6 figures or more for a known papered example. Most mortal men cannot afford such a blade once papered

[NewB]

Folks that spend that sort of money are not in the blind IMHO. 

 

J.

[YOJIMBO]

somehow I miss, what is special about this?

[Brian]

Thinking you got lucky.
That is a massive gamble, with a small chance at a payoff, otherwise a $15K loss. Odds are always in favour of gimei or something completely different.

[Gakusee]

The photos are not good enough to say what the hamon really looks like. 
 

I understand your hope was for a genuine Ichimonji. However, I have never ever seen an Ichimonji nakago with double horizontal marks. 
 

And to be fair - both of them seem a bit off from the ones that are most typical. I would go as far as to say they both look rather gimei. 
 

Analyse the patina on the nakago too. Have you seen 800 year old nakago and patina before. Please compare. 
 

Also, look at the sugata. If the Ichi were genuine this would purport to be an ubu zaimei Ichimonji tachi. The sakizori seems very deep there and you would expect a bit more koshizori at the bottom of the blade. 
 

And so on…

[NewB]

While everything mentioned above is righteous I'd still be in the same spot as my fellow forumite. Going all in just like in the casino.

 

I only need to win once right? 🥳

 

P.S. I'd like to say thanks to all of your insight folks!

 

Cheers

 

J.

[Utopianarian]

Looking at the blade itself there are a lot of features that make me strongly feel that it is legit. As far as nakago there are other examples with patina very similar of the same age and era. I spend hours actually doing very close overlays and comparisons. Not all are black patina some with more build up than others depending on location, humidity how the sword was cared for etc.. this blade has in my mind was worth the gamble as well. Call me crazy but my gut says it’s legit. I’m sticking to my guns as well. Somebody dropped some cash on it. It wasn’t just me out there trying to bid heavy on it. There were others bidding heavy when the increments of bidding was hitting $1000 increments per bid. I do appreciate the views from others it makes it interesting and raises good learning opportunities going forward. You can btw see the choji densely packed in the hamon overlapping maybe it’s my foggy eyes as well. The kissaki looks like the ikubi kissaki and the curvature and high set shingi-ji with thick kasane. Curvature looks appropriate to me for a slightly cut down blade. The extra ichi at the top may be where the where the blade was moved up when cut down. It looks like areas of corrosion near that area. The ichi below is clear. Many other features that match existing Ichimonji blades. I am convinced it was legit. The ichi in later blades were more like armorer marks in the center where as the earlier ichi marked blades sometimes were on an angle and sometimes went all the way to the mune

[Gakusee]

Excuse me, did either of you inspect it in hand? 
The “Ichi” do not look anything like either Fukuoka or Yoshioka “Ichi”. Despite that, even if gimei or fumei, theoretically a blade could still be what it purports it to be if you could properly inspect the hamon, hada, the niku, see the utsuri etc. 
Again, I can barely see anything here, but a formation like this (denser, uniform choji), one would be looking towards Yoshioka and other later Ichimonji. 
 

If you inspected it or have other photos, please share with us. 
Thank you. 

[Katsujinken]

I’m with the other Michael on this one guys. The “ichi” on the nakago (both of them!) do not look right to me.
 

It’ll probably clean up nice and maybe even be profitable for the buyer, but I do not believe this is any variety of Ichimonji. 

[Franco D]

6 hours ago, Utopianarian said:

I do appreciate the views from others it makes it interesting and raises good learning opportunities going forward.

 

The shape of the auction sword is lacking in elegance, too much saki zorii and lack of taper, imo;  see  https://yuhindo.com/ichimonji-norifusa-tachi/ . That, in addition to the two Ichi characters, hmm. It almost looks like somebody screwed up the mei placement not once, but perhaps twice. There was a time during the Muromachi period known for copying early swords including forgery of the mei. $16,000, plus another $4,000 to $5,000 and more for polish and paper equals a cheap Ichimonji or an expensive Koto copy. 

 

Is it live or is it memorex?

 

[Utopianarian]

Here is an example of a later style of ichi of a well known blade

[Utopianarian]

Early styles of ichi

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think this picture shows that this blade is not even close to be that old. 

The amount of polishes such an old sword must have would be visible on the Mune.

~1700 would be my guess.

The "Sugata picture" is taken in an angle that make the sori look larger.

This is just my opinion.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Utopianarian said:

Early styles of ichi

Thanks, George, I appreciate you thinking highly enough of my humble introductory presentation to quote it here. 
 

It is true there is a lot of variability in the way “Ichi” was incised or, more precisely - chiselled. However, there were still certain forms as to the beginning and ending strokes, the small atari (notches at the end) and the overall placement. However, the school was very big and existed for approximately a hundred years so I do acknowledge there is a lot of variety even within Fukuoka let alone Yoshioka or the other sub schools (even though Fukuoka and Yoshioka were the ones employing “Ichi” predominantly). 
 

But here we are not talking about the signature in isolation. We are talking about the shape (if anything, rather late and incongruent with the early Fukuoka or even broader Ichimonji of the mid Kamakura), the dense hamon with choji packed very closely together - again, a later feature but I have seen it in some Yoshioka. 
 

The sword does have some good features, but it needs to be inspected in hand, without placing reliance on the mei. 

[Ronin 47]

I saw this same sword for auction, and thought about bidding on it for a split second. 

 

Needless to say I didn't even bother, for some of the reasons already stated. Lots of red flags on this one, the saki-zori being but one. 

 

While I certainly hope I am wrong, for the buyers sake, in my opinion there is too much money, and not a lot of scholarship on Live-Auctioneers. I don't know how many times I saw something on there, went to look at it in person, and ran away as fast I could, only to see someone pay insane prices based on sloppy photography. 

 

Happened again today.  Was looking at a possible late 19th century Chinese vase made into a lamp. It had two huge cracks in it, and the more I looked at it the more suspicious I became. Even if real, the price payed was way over market. 

 

Coming back to this sword, 19k+22.5% buyers premium+tax+restoration...yeah, I think you get the point. 

 

Sincerely,

Austin R 

 

[noneed2hate]

Could also be someone was bidding simply to drive the price up rather than a collector who wanted this piece, just my .02 

Not sure if I'd personally be willing to spend that much on something online sight unseen in person but to each their own.

It is a good looking sword nonetheless from what I can see. 

[Utopianarian]

Christian, blade looks like 1700’s in your opinion. Really? Do others here concur with that assessment. If so I must have really missed the boat. As far as the comment on shill bidding to drive up the price of an item in an official auction is a lot different than eBay. Not only is it frowned on but also illegal. If someone would be bold enough to risk that for said gain also runs the risk of being stuck with the item if others don’t entertain the walk up in bids plus the extra fees associated with the item including buyers premium up to sometimes as high as 25% which wouldn’t make sense. I don’t know if you are familiar with traditional auctions and how they work (A little different than eBay

[Utopianarian]

Also to add if you look at the two images taken the angle it was photographed will show different effects of how the sori or curve looks from each angle. I do agree with Michael if possible in hand assessment of the blade is best. Others were present I was informed in house as well for blade viewing in person.

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately I am at a loss re the hammer price is this one. There is a lot of niku in the blade, no strong evidence of midare utsuri, there are no defects... Yes, there are Kamakura blades with no defects - they are TJ as a rule. It is not in polish, but there is very little here suggesting Kamakura attribution.

[PNSSHOGUN]

George you likely saved yourself a real headache on this one, unless you inspected it in-hand with an expert on Ichimonji beside you to confirm this has far too many red flags. At that price (before any restoration is done!) you could probably get yourself a Juyo Ichimonji of slightly less pedigree but equally nice delivered to your door.

[Utopianarian]

I appreciate the comments it makes me feel a little better about missing out on this one. Please help me get over it. Cmon guys get on the band wagon help me… please 

[NewB]

3 minutes ago, Utopianarian said:

I appreciate the comments it makes me feel a little better about missing out on this one. Please help me get over it. Cmon guys get on the band wagon help me… please 

 

Drink, don't think 🤣

 

🥳

 

 

J.