Type 19 kyu Gunto Loose Hilt

[JackyFisher]

Hi All

I would like your expertise on how to ID and repair this type 19 parade sword. It has only 1 marking, a " 10 " stamped on the guard. The guard has too large a hole , so the blade wiggles a lot. Blade is thin 33 inch long.

Thanks!

[JackyFisher]

[Bruce Pennington]

Jacky,

@lonely panet and @Dave R might have a better answer than what I'm about to say.

 

I don't think the hole in the handle is unusual.  It appears to me that the original seppa has been lost somehow.  That leather seppa has a hole that is too big.  It shouldn't be able to slide over the blade.  You can see the impression in the leather of what was likely a metal seppa.  If the leather one was original to this blade, then maybe all that has happened is that the metal seppa was destroyed and removed for some reason.  It would have held the leather seppa in place and tightened the handle.  All gunto handles, of all types, are loose if the seppa aren't in place.

 

What puzzles me about yours, is the end (I don't know the name) is still peened, so it doesn't look to me like the handle has ever been removed.  So it's a mystery as to why or how the original seppa came off.

[JackyFisher]

Thanks Bruce! That was very helpful. As I read somewhere these Type 19s did not have the traditional habaki, do you think  it had a seppa without habaki (or what I said was wrong)?  Would you happen to know where I can buy replacements for this size of blade?

Vertically (along the blade direction) the hilt is reasonably tight. The leather seppa is not very loose, but it can slide off with some friction.

[Dave R]

The blade has a mirror/buffed finish, which means it has been stripped and reassembled. All bets are off!

[JackyFisher]

5 hours ago, Dave R said:

The blade has a mirror/buffed finish, which means it has been stripped and reassembled. All bets are off!

Thanks Dave. I agree this looks like it had a different blade earlier, which explains the large hole. It could even be a fake or assembled piece. I got it from auction. That being said, these type 19s tend to have shiny blades because they are meant to be cheap nickel-plated non-combat "blades". I can see the nickel paint-like layer wanting to fall off from the edge at some bruised spots.

[JackyFisher]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Jacky,

@lonely panet and @Dave R might have a better answer than what I'm about to say.

 

I don't think the hole in the handle is unusual.  It appears to me that the original seppa has been lost somehow.  That leather seppa has a hole that is too big.  It shouldn't be able to slide over the blade.  You can see the impression in the leather of what was likely a metal seppa.  If the leather one was original to this blade, then maybe all that has happened is that the metal seppa was destroyed and removed for some reason.  It would have held the leather seppa in place and tightened the handle.  All gunto handles, of all types, are loose if the seppa aren't in place.

 

What puzzles me about yours, is the end (I don't know the name) is still peened, so it doesn't look to me like the handle has ever been removed.  So it's a mystery as to why or how the original seppa came off.

After some googling I saw that Type 19 must have had various ways in which the blade connects with the guard. The most common is version A, which looks like mine, and seem to lack a metal seppa. Then there is B and C. My vague impression is that only the combat-worthy models have visible kabaki or seppa.

I don't get how seppa works: must there be a cast depression in the guard for the seppa to sit in? otherwise I do not understand how seppa on the external side of the guard can restrict movement for long unless you weld it on

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, nice research!  We need all the researchers we can get around here!

 

The habaki's real purpose is to create friction as it wedges into the saya opening, holding the blade from falling out.  Before Westernized weapons were introduced, swords didn't use locking latches (ok, almost never).  It was the habaki that held blades in the saya.  Seppa, while decorative, are used to tighten the tsuka (handle) to the blade.  I have had a couple gunto arrive with loose tsuka.  So simply adding a seppa or 2 tightened them right up.  The hole in the seppa are tightly shaped to only fit the nakago.  Once you slide them over the nakago, they butt up against the machi (notches) where the actual blade begins.  They cannot slide over the blade.

 

I haven't researched the Type 19, maybe you could benefit us all with some more of that.  If they didn't use metal seppa, and you want to stay original, I'd work out a way to replace that leather seppa with one that has the correctly sized hole, so it won't slide over the blade.  There is a thread on NMB where guys discussed how to remove Type 19 (and kyugunto) handles.  If you cannot remove it, you might have to make a leather seppa (many guys have done this) with a sliced open bottom edge so you can slip the seppa over the nakago.  Then super-glue or gorilla-glue the sliced section together once in place.  There might be other ways to achieve what you're needing.

[JackyFisher]

Thanks Bruce! That clears a lot up. And the plan sounds better than my projected last resort "insert chopstick"!

[ShintoKami]

Im a bit late here but, your kyu is normal for the type 19 parade . original leather moisture guard, never had a seppa . The blade is fine, hasn't been touched, and still has the etched hamon, although its a bit scratched. Reason its loose is that under the pommel there is a square bolt attached to the threaded tang, its become loose, they all do. If your feeling brave, and the hilt is loose enough that there is a gap between the pommel, and brass domed washer, you can slowly and carefully work it off with a small screwdriver, the washer is only just cold peened so it pretty simple. tighten the nut and carefully re-cold peen the washer back on.  Your scabbards in good condition. 

[lonely panet]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:23 AM, Dave R said:

The blade has a mirror/buffed finish, which means it has been stripped and reassembled. All bets are off!

rusbbish, the thick chome looks original, if your wheel buff the etched hamon would be removed so your incorrect. 

 

the blade is loose because of many factors,  you cant adjust the tightness of the handle with peined end.  if it were a threaded end you could.

secondy its very Rare to find dress swords with long blades like yours,  so when its waved about theres alot of weight and forced that the handle and fit of the blade are subjected too. so the parts move and squirm under the effect.

 

as to the quality of the fit and finish,  i would say its a later made dress sword.  there not as clean and well finished as early dress swords.

 

i have one of the earlest naval dress swords that has simular wiggling through the guard,  and one of the earlest admirals flag swords that was published in all the good books. simular issue,  but they were all screwed not peined