Inazuma, sunagashi, imozuru - or?

[george trotter]

Hi all, yes, me again.

I am tidying up some of my notes etc and have a question for members regarding which line to follow on a hamon matter.

 

Here are a series of pics of the hamon feature variously titled Inazuma, sunagashi and Imozru...which is correct in my case?

 

First photo is  of my Maskazu blade which I had classed as sunagashi based on a number of books including one showing his teacher Tsukamoto Okimasa's oshigata showing sunagashi  and his teacher Kasama Shigetsugu's showing the same feature (all three images show the same feature/work).

However, I was just reading Markus Sesko, in Kantei 3 - Boshi & Hamon #1 who has a drawing of this feature saying  it is "Imozuru (potato vine - a thick conspicuous form of inazuma" (inazuma seems darker and 'sharper' in style to me).

A look through a number of books shows Sunagashi as having more of multiple lines...I think Markus is right in my case.

 

Can I have your opinions please?...just to tidy up a loose end.

Images are:

1. my Masakazu

2. His teacher brother Okimasa - book doesn't say

3. His teacher Shigetsugu - same book, says sunagashi

4. Markus's drawing titled Imozuru (potato vine - a thick/conspicuous version of Inazuma)

[Gakusee]

George, just a few clarifications:

- kinsuji tend to be singular and very bright (after all that is why they are called gold lines!)

- sunagashi tend to be multiple lines

- inazuma tend to be single lines and sharply crossing the habuchi at an angle.

All of the above are high-quality and reasonably sharp hataraki

 

 

I think your blade has imozuru. 

 

Imozuru is not quite as glamorous, is usually duller, thicker and often in ara nie based hamon. It is associated with Satsuma blades specifically.

Some of the hataraki here are imozuru but not all: www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2014/14153-2.jpg, www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2015/15199-2.jpg

 

 

 

Another Satsuma blade with imozuru 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi George

 

I think this photo shows Sunagashi quite well in a Gendaito.

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

 

 

Kinsuji

Note how clearly defined it is... The difference with imozuru is that the imozuru will be more blurred, speckled with ara nie/nie and in the right light will not shine so brightly.

[george trotter]

Thanks for your replies guys...Yes my line is not 'bright'....it is darkish. I suppose it fits the classification of IMOZURU. The only problem is that the pics I show above from the book Nihonto Zukan by Tokuno (pp.167,  171)  describe Shigetsugu's same hamon feature as SUNAGASHI (which is why I did) . Could Tokuno be wrong? I agree with Michael S above that usually, sunagashi tends to be multiple lines while mine is a single line...my Masakazu line matches his bro/teacher  Okimasa and his line matches his teacher Shigetsugu and all three seem a good match to Markus's drawing which he calls IMOZURU.   What term should I use?

My head hurts.

 

Edit to add (hours later),

I just re-discovered this exact topic which I raised a year ago...got virtually the same results. I'm sorry, if I'd found it earlier I could have saved us some needless trouble.

Duuhhh!  in that outcome I decided on calling the line sunagashi...now a year later, I have had the nagging doubts again...I'm still not REALLY sure what to call that line...if an expert book by Tokuno calls it sunagashi, I suppose I should stay with that?

Sorry to waste your time - twice!

Previous topic is under 'sunagashi, imozuru - or?

[Toryu2020]

What you are seeing is a kinsuji (in my opinion) - "Imozuru" is a derogatory term meant to point to Satsuma work specifically - "Satsuma potato" is a derogatory term and kantei guys played on this to describe the work on Satsuma blades (they may be inferior to kinsuji in other works but I don't think so) - The kinsuji in Satsuma swords is really long, but you won't find really long kinsuji referred to as imozuru in other artists EG; Shinkai...

-t

[Gakusee]

Thomas, I don’t think there is any argument imozoru is Satsuma related and also perceived as inferior to kinsuji. But there is a reason for that: imozoru is dull and ill defined (due to the ara nie) and blurry. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/poetical terms.html  

 

Imozuru = potato runner (Imo = sweet potato, Zuru or Tsuru = runner)
A kind of kinsuji, but a little thick, long and dim. It seems running dully.
It is typical in blades in Satsuma province, and the province is famous for sweet potato. The term includes some ridicule against Satsuma blades.

 

EDIT: I found this and will just link it and we can observe our progress.

Maybe some more pictures in different angles will take us closer to an answer.

 

[george trotter]

Thanks guys.

What do you all think the line shown in the oshigatas of Shigetsugu and Okimasa (shown above) should be called?...Tokuno calls Shigetsugu's 'sunagashi'.

 

Edit to add (after many hours) a picture of 'sunagashi' from a www.samuraisword.com site that I now don't remember smith's name. I just copied this pic for why I now can't remember either...maybe I was looking up sunagashi?

Just asking, this is the same type line in the hamon as mine and this site calls it a 'sunagashi'...what do you guys think?

Regards,

[WillFalstaff]

Hi George,

 

I’m new to all this, but I do think a majority of experienced guys would say that sunagashi needs to be clear multiple lines. 

Below is from Nagayama’s Connoisseir’s Book of Japanese Swords. The other pic is from Nakahara’s Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords. 

 

[george trotter]

Thanks Will. Yes I have seen those graphics and several more and yes, you are right, most show sunagashi to be of several lines, not just one.

But then the knowledgeable and reputable Tokuno describes a single line in the Shigetsugu hamon (above) as sunagashi. This single 'sunagashi' line appears in Shigetsugu's work, his pupil Okimasa's work and in his brother/pupil Masakazu's work...it is a definite, intended feature...what to call it?

I have taken the Tokuno description as sunagashi to describe the feature in my sword unless a better source identifies it a different way.

I hate unsettled matters...dangling answers...

 

[Gakusee]

George, are you sure Tokuno san refers to a a single line as “sunagashi”? Perhaps there are sunagashi on your sword and the other swords you are referencing, but those sunagashi are not single lines. Maybe Tokuno san was referring to something else, not the particular feature you think he was referring to. Is there a photo with an arrow or a diagram where you can see specifically Tokuno pointing to a kinsuji but labelling it sunagashi? 
 

Just as a Satsuma blade can have sunagashi and imozuru at the same time. 
 

Just as a blade can have (and very often has) both kinsuji (several sequential or separated single lines) and sunagashi (clustered together lines). 

[WillFalstaff]

George - That's what I'm learning slowly about kentai. It's more subjective and rules are often broken, in favor heavier weighing identifiers. Nakahara specifically says to not consider these as heavily as other, more prominent features.

Oy!

[Gakusee]

On 3/8/2022 at 6:35 AM, george trotter said:

Thanks guys.

What do you all think the line shown in the oshigatas of Shigetsugu and Okimasa (shown above) should be called?...Tokuno calls Shigetsugu's 'sunagashi'.

 

Edit to add (after many hours) a picture of 'sunagashi' from a www.samuraisword.com site that I now don't remember smith's name. I just copied this pic for why I now can't remember either...maybe I was looking up sunagashi?

Just asking, this is the same type line in the hamon as mine and this site calls it a 'sunagashi'...what do you guys think?

Regards,

George, the author (Pepin) of that photo and post on their website simply chose a representative photo of the hamon. What he is saying is that the hamon contains ashi, yo, sunagashi and ko-nie.

He is not saying that the photo above contains all or any of those. 

Can you see the konie in there? Or the ashi? Or the yo in that photo? I struggle to see anything but a couple of dark lines in the habuchi (which would likely make it sunagashi as there is more than one line) but I cannot see or tell if there are smaller finer lines between the two darker lines.

 

That is the issue you have with blurry, low quality photos head-on. 

[george trotter]

Hey guys, I think it would be best if I post that Shigetsugu oshigata above with its text (save a lot of misunderstanding - should have thought of it before).

I'll just give my reading of the relevant sentence on sunagashi,....which I HOPE our Japanese fluent members can explain the full meaning...some phrases/pronunciations  I am probably wrong on.

 

So, talking about the construction of the blade the text goes to bottom paragraph, 4th column from right, third character down as follows

....ashi ga hasaki ni kakedashi so na hodo iri, karui sunagashi ga, kakate yaya arame no ko futsu potsu potsu to suita, ....

 

This is the bit about the hamon...

 

What do we think?

 

[Gakusee]

George, yes, probably best referred to as sunagashi in your oshigata, as these are several stands one beneath another.
 

As mentioned previously - kinsuji are single lines (they do not have other lines above or below) and sunagashi are multiple lines above/below another. The name sunagashi (sand lines) itself is pictorial and allows one to imagine how these are multiple lines.

[Jacques D.]

Honsanmai tsukuri ...

 

 

[george trotter]

Michael I understand what you say...it is just that literally, most sources say it is "swept sand lines" as in multiple lines...in the case of the Shigetsugu oshigata, and his student Okimasa and his student Masakazu the feature is a single line (see attached Okimasa page from Tokuno - you will see he does not really describe the hamon/hamon features) but uses the term sunagashi for Shigetsugu (see Tokuno pp.180-181 below  and look at hamons 8, 9 which are 'sunagashi' as we know it, but also look at hamons 16, 17 which are this one line type seen in the Masazkazu, Shigetsugu and Okimasa). Tokuno describes this line as sunagashi on the Shigetsugu oshigata, but unfortunately, he does not describe the features shown in his hamons on these pages 180, 181.

So, on page 167 Tokuno calls it sunagashi - and I would like the passage that says it translated by someone fluent in Japanese so I can be sure that is what he said/means about this single line feature.

 

Jacques, yes that does look like this line except mine is within the hamon and yours crosses the valleys (as does the hamon shown on p.181 #16 hamon below). Are you saying this is a feature of honsanmai made swords?

Can you give the source and text details of the picture you show?

 

Thanks all...

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is a very amateur attempt for the Shigetsugu hamon part.

 

Quote

刃文は互の目に小丁子がまじり, 小沸がよくついて沸
匂ふかく, 足が刃先に駆け出しそうなほど入り, かるい砂流しがかかってやや荒目のがポツポツとついた.

 

Hamon is gunome mixed with ko-chōji, with ko-nie. (I am not sure how nioi is described), ashi are running towards cutting edge, (light?) sunagashi with some roughness (pockmarked?). Some of the adjective descriptions are usually very difficult for me to read and understand as my language is not at that level and I have to rely on translation programs and common sense when trying to figure some out.

 

For the last picture, it is just a reference hamon style of smith (and for others who made similarish work, listed besides). 8. Masamune - 9. Norishige - 16. Motohira - 17. Kiyomaro.

[Toryu2020]

George - 

It is not one single unbroken line (in your first oshigata above) - it is several lines (perhaps running along the same fold) with shorter lines coming in and out in parrallel - surely he saw the blade in hand and saw the lines as sunagashi - while the illustration may make it look like a kinsuji - this is why it is always nice to have the photo and an oshigata. Is there a particular sword driving these questions? Would be nice to see the item in question...

-t

[Franco D]

Below is an image from a katana that I once owned. What you see here is the boshi, a hakikake boshi. This hakikake boshi is in essence a continuation of the sunagashi from the hamon into the kissaki, where of course it is called hakikake.

This image should give at least some idea of what "swept sands" looks like in reference to nihonto. 

 

[george trotter]

11 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

George - 

It is not one single unbroken line (in your first oshigata above) - it is several lines (perhaps running along the same fold) with shorter lines coming in and out in parrallel - surely he saw the blade in hand and saw the lines as sunagashi - while the illustration may make it look like a kinsuji - this is why it is always nice to have the photo and an oshigata. Is there a particular sword driving these questions? Would be nice to see the item in question...

-t

Thanks for that Jussi...I too am often having problems with Japanese, but I got the same basic facts as you show here...Shigetsugu is described by Tokuno in this oshigata as having sunagashi. The sword that raised this question is mine...it is shown in a photo in the OP...a short section of the blade with this line...the blade is  of Tsukamoto Masakazu dated 4/1942. He is the brother and student of the great Tsukamoto Okimasa...see OP. The reason I have raised this topic is that Masakazu, his teacher Okimasa and his teacher Kasama Shigetsugu all have this line in their hamons. Tokuno calls it "sunagashi" and Markus Sesko calls it IMOZURU (potato vines) - a thick and conspicuous INAZUMA appearing in the habuchi (hamon border area) and hamon (which is where mine is).  I raised this discussion to get clarity on which it is? Is my line sunagashi OR imozuru/inazuma? I will add that the line on my blade (like the line shown on Shigetsugu's oshigata) seems to go (with breaks) nearly all the way up the blade.

 

Thanks Franco...yes, that is my idea of 'sunagashi-swept sands', so I was surprised that Tokuno used sunagashi to describe what is basically a single wide line on the Shigetsugu's oshigata.

 

I think it might just be best if I show both Tokuno's and Sesko's information in my notes and leave it at that?

 

[Toryu2020]

George -

Is the description from Markus a translation of some document associated with your sword or his own attribution? Or are you attaching his description to what you are seeing on your sword? Again I would point to the tanto above (dated Taisho 10). There is one long line with breaks accompanied by shorter parrallel lines that come in and out, which to me sounds like what you are describing in your piece...

-t

(trying to help really!)

[george trotter]

Jussi, I am quoting the descriptions given to this 'one large line in the hamon' by

(A) Tokuno with oshigatas. I'm sure he has years of experience, but he may be one of those who "allows leeway" in his descriptions.

(B) Markus, describing a drawing. I don't know where Markus got his info...other than years of study...but I assume it is his attribution.

 

On my blade, the line is as you see it...it has 'breaks' in several places and is quite hard to see in places.

I raised the matter because I had not had this feature in hand before I got this sword back in August 2020. I must say I am surprised it has taken me this long NOT to get a clear simple description written down in my file.

So far I have made several decisions on descriptions, changed them again...at the moment I am 'sort-of' set on 'attributing' the line as (based on Tokuno and Sesko comments)"

1. sunagashi (although I think sunagashi has multiple lines)

2. imozuru/Inazuma (although inazuma has a dark colour).

 

So at the moment it is Sunagashi - imozuru - inazuma. It will stay as this UNLESS - hopefully, a NMB member will pop up with a clear and simple explanation based on a source with pictures.

 

My head hurts.

[Toryu2020]

Imozuru is used in descriptions for Satsuma swords never heard it used to describe any other school. Someone reading your note may be lead to see this as a Satsuma work when it is not.

 

Inazuma are short lines that cross from the hamon into the ji so they are squiggly and often angled not vertical in parallel with with the cutting edge.

 

I would stick with Tokuno since he was talking about this specific sword...

 

-t

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

I have a suspicion that your desire for a neat and confimed description of this feature as either a, or b will never be satisfied.  The texts that we all use tend to show, forgive me, textbook examples of features.  In most descriptions of swords we see many qualifiers applied to such features, for example, " scattered sunagashi crossing the tani of the hamon, more evident towards the monouchi".

 

As what you illustrate seems to be a feature of the group of smiths you might end up with something like this:  "Following his teacher this smith tempered a hamon in which sunagashi concentrate into a dense cluster forming a defined line running more or less parallel with the ha and typically crossing the ashi below the habuchi".  Following Jacque's suggestion you might add, " This feature may be a product of the honsanmai tsukuri construction used by smiths of this group".

 

If you think about this in art terms impasto is an easily defined feature of  painting but the way in which each artist uses it is distinctive and requires some qualification.

 

I know, not the clarity you were seeking.  Sorry about that.

 

All the best.

[george trotter]

Thomas, Geraint, Jacques and all others who commented...thank you.

Yes, I agree that it is too difficult to be too precise. Obviously this is why the Japanese experts and texts leave a bit of "leeway" in their interpretations.

I will (actually already have) follow your recommendation to stick to the Tokuno position as (as you say) he is specifically discussing the features of this connected line of smiths.

So, I will leave it as 'sunagashi' and not take up too much space discussing the "other possibilities" like inazuma, Imozuru etc, etc.

Your description is short, relevant covers the situation and explains it all well....so thanks

 

Thank you all for taking the time to assist in this matter.

Love the NMB.

Regards,

 

Edit to add ...

An hour has passed...I've just adjusted my file text...all simple and clear now.

I'm smiling.

Thanks guys.