Family emblem and Mon on koshiare

[Paz]

Hi all. I have a question  regarding mon and family emblems on swords.

 

I recently viewed a few swords and one late muromachi period  sword had the kamei family crest on the koshiare ( particularly fuchi).  

 

If a sword koshiare or saya, has a family emblem belonging to a daimyo. Can we assume that the sword was made for,  owened by that particular family ? Even if the family domain was some distance away from where the sword was made. 

 

Or is it a case that a blade was put into shirasaya and then acquired at a much later date. And then given fittings with no regards to family crests (such as meiji period or end of edo period) 

 

Thank you. 

[Bugyotsuji]

That's a such a multi-faceted question, Paz, that it is hard to know where to begin.

 

A Mon or Kamon shows close or distant allegiance/affiliation/association with a particular clan or family, used with permission, (but in later centuries increasingly without permission from anyone).

 

It is rare that a Mon alone can be used to pin down anything historically, but in some cases it is clear from the rest of the circumstantial evidence that it can be the final authenticating piece within an overall package.

 

On average I find that the presence of a finely executed Mon adds a touch of cachet, a dash of romance, (I hate to use the debased word 'class'), like the cherry on a cake.

 

PS Just noticed another mini question in there. Old blades are very rarely found in their original Koshirae. The number of mekugi holes in the nakago will give you an indication of how often the koshirae was changed. If it's a good blade that has been passed down between or within illustrious families, it could be that in a time of opulence the owner has decided to fit it with a splendid-looking koshirae, studded with family crests (Kamon). Generally such a blade and package will fetch top dollar today.

[Paz]

Thanks @Bugyotsuji I think the word I was looking for was as you said permission by the family. 

 

My thinking is that in later periods just before and during the meiji period , koshiare were fitted on swords which prior had no historical relation to each other. This could also explains why after ww2 American soldiers without knowing  had officers swords which were antiques and treasures.

[Toryu2020]

Daimyo families had primary and secondary mon - sometimes as many as four - truth is that unless the particular mon is singularly unique to a single family you cannot ascribe any mon to any person, family or line. Should you find an item of quality that includes two or more mon then the probabilities are much higher but it is still just supposition without other evidence.

 

Swords had an incredible currency over the years - some families patronized their local swordsmiths and boasted many blades by their hometown artist in their collections - many families had swords from all over and almost none from local smiths, even when they were directly employed by that family...

-t

[drbvac]

On 1/6/2022 at 8:14 PM, Paz said:

Hi all. I have a question  regarding mon and family emblems on swords.

 

I recently viewed a few swords and one late muromachi period  sword had the kamei family crest on the koshiare ( particularly fuchi).  

 

If a sword koshiare or saya, has a family emblem belonging to a daimyo. Can we assume that the sword was made for,  owened by that particular family ? Even if the family domain was some distance away from where the sword was made. 

 

Or is it a case that a blade was put into shirasaya and then acquired at a much later date. And then given fittings with no regards to family crests (such as meiji period or end of edo period) 

 

Thank you. 

 

Is this what you were referring to as the Shimazu mon is on the koshira and the tsuba is as well. I found it interesting in and of itself to have mounts that were made at some point to be associated wiith a particular family or daimyo - the blade and smith have no relationship to the Shimazu as far as I can determine and is by Sadayoshi

 

[Paz]

I was referring this particular mon , again it might be just there as a decorative. 

[Bugyotsuji]

That is a proper Mon in gold, which is also decorative in itself. 

 

Consider Meyui, yottsume, yottsume-yui. Yours has a twist, so 'Sumitate' or 'standing on one corner'.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/目結紋

 

[Paz]

5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

That is a proper Mon in gold, which it is also decorative in itself. 

 

Consider Meyui, yottsume, yottsume-yui. Yours has a twist, so 'Sumitate' or 'standing on one corner'.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/目結紋

 

That's very interesting. Just read up on the  the okuyama family. 

 

Am I right in saying that the fuchi emblem on this sword (meyui) was influenced. Or was the sword actually given to them ? 

The sword is koto , late muromachi period 1530s.  

[Toryu2020]

Paz - 

I think the best you can say is there may be some relation - given the quality of what we can see, it may (and its a big IF) it may have been someone who served the family that used this mon. Over two hundred and fifty years there would have been dozens of branch families and retainer families given permission to use the mon - sometimes it is on "parade" items used for sankin kotai - seriously without other corroborating information it is just a nice mon...

-t

[Paz]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:32 PM, Toryu2020 said:

Paz - 

I think the best you can say is there may be some relation - given the quality of what we can see, it may (and its a big IF) it may have been someone who served the family that used this mon. Over two hundred and fifty years there would have been dozens of branch families and retainer families given permission to use the mon - sometimes it is on "parade" items used for sankin kotai - seriously without other corroborating information it is just a nice mon...

-t

Thomas,  I think this will remain a mystery and anyone's guess. Even the dealer did not go into detail regarding the use of the mon and who may have used it. 

 

There is another question I do wish to pose , and rather than create a separate thread il ask here. 

 

This particular piece comes with a imperial army saya , which is early meiji late edo. (Not ww2).  You can tell from the hook on saya and that it is not lacquered. 

 

We're koto or late  muromachi swords later mounted in new imperial saya ? Does this mean that the sword was in shirasaya or the original saya destroyed. As this particular piece has koto blade, with koshiare which is also koto period. But an imperial army saya.

 

Thanks