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Advice on a potential purchase


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Welcome to the forum John!

 

I agree what others have said about sending to NBTHK, if sending items to shinsa in Japan would be easier for me, I would try to get several attributions to the 2 mumei swords in my collection.

 

In my opinion that is an interesting sword, what kind of measurements it has? I am having hard time figuring out if it has orikaeshi-mei (folded over signature) or gaku-mei (inserted signature), as it is so corroded I can't see anything (I know Ray is like a detective in figuring these out). Do you happen to have a picture of the end of the tang?

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Hi Jussi, and thanks for the welcome.

 

I have this information on the measurements:

Cutting Edge Length(Nagasa): 73.7 cm( 29.0 inches)
Curvature(Sori): 2.7 cm (1.06 inches)

 

Unfortunately I only have the pictures of the tang I have posted (or others taken from the same perspective).  If you are referring to more of a cross section picture I can ask them to take one.

 

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Dear John.

 

Jussi is referring to the nakago jiri, a close look will confirm whether the signature is gaku mei, a separate piece of metal with the mei inlaid into the nakago, or orikaeshi mei, a thinned section with the mei folded over and inlaid.  We have been referring to this as tanzaku mei which is usually a term that applies to small pieces of metal fixed into the back of menuki, it's not a usage I have come across with sword signatures.  

 

Gaku mei are very prone to be false signatures, arguably orikaeshi mei less so. I have convinced myself that this sword is orikaeshi mei and look forward to seeing where you go with this decision.

 

All the best.

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Hi Geraint, and apologies for my inexperience with this.  I have tried to look up those terms and from looking at images I would struggle to tell which one is which.  Below is probably the best picture I have showing the nakago jiro from each side, let me know if this gives a bit more insight:

 

nakago1-20-scaled.thumb.jpg.5ff599807b3ec9b958ea8b79a3d715ae.jpg

 

To me it doesn't look like the mei has been folded around, which is what it sounds like would refer to orikaeshi mei?  The term tanzaku mei was one that the seller used to describe this and I will ask them the question in my next mail to them.

 

If you could show an example of the angle of photo that would be most useful I can pass this on and get them to provide a similar picture.

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John,

 

The nakago-jiri is the butt of the blade, see below:

 

spacer.png

 

Orikaeshi mei leaves the mei upside down and there's a fold visible when looking end on at the nakago-jiri.

 

It certainly looks like orikaeshi mei in the image below, but an end on photo of the nakago-jiri would show definitively if there is in fact a fold or a seam.

 

If it is orikaeshi mei, the inlaid mei will be attached to the other side. The mei will be on a flap, like the triangular section on an envelope which you use to seal it.

 

What we're looking for is an image showing the folded edge.

 

IMG_7332 conv.jpeg

 

Scroll to the bottom here for a clear explanation of gaku mei and orikaeshi mei, along with diagrams.

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@Jussi Ekholm @Geraint

 

Here are some additional pics they have sent of the bottom of the Nakago-Jiri.

793825879_IMG_8196conv.thumb.jpeg.245037f74ea07406f0eefd0c50ba2659.jpeg46633681_IMG_8198conv.thumb.jpeg.fb672b6198568f0094d7b26c9bf5bf06.jpeg1793378715_IMG_8200conv.thumb.jpeg.d41fadd32cde09df7cb334865a216c62.jpeg

 

And their comments are:

When I saw the signature, it looks like Orikaeshi mei, you can see the turning part in bottom of Nakago.

However, registration paper (Tourokusyo) says Tanzakumei.

 

Kind regards,

John

 

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John, I agree that it is orikaeshimei.  Because of this, when the sword is photographed upright, the mei is upside down.  If you rotate the photo of the mei 180 degrees, some of our great readers of obscured meis (I am thinking Ray Singer here...) may be able to give you a reading of the mei.

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By the way, it looks like the sword had at least two more holes in the tang - you can see part of them on the folded part of the mei.  By my count, there were six holes at least.  This is a good sign of a well loved and often remounted sword.

 

Sorry, I just noticed that Ray already flipped the photo.  In any case, since the length is currently 29.5 inches and based on the last hole (the distal one in the orikaeshi mei), it wouldn't surprise me if this sword was 34" or more (86-88 cm), quite a large sword!

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Thank you for the pictures John, that makes it lot clearer. I think it makes things interesting.

 

I know that you should focus on the details on the sword rather than doing speculative stuff but I'll give some reasoning here. As the sword seems to have been signed on sashi omote side (way katana are generally signed) and the signature has been folded over. Based on the 15 signed ōdachi & tachi I have on record for Tomomitsu, he signed his swords on haki-omote side (way tachi are normally signed). I attach here an example of orikaeshi-mei by Tomomitsu and you can see the signature is folded on the opposite side as on the sword we are discussing.

20220108_200826.thumb.jpg.196f61548ddef81b7290143b823da079.jpg

 

Signing tachi on sashi-omote side was never really a big thing in Bizen and signature on this side started to appear more during the early Muromachi period. And as the signature seems to have been thought important enough to fold over I would think it could have been made by a good smith. NTHK going for Tomomitsu is a small headscratcher for me personally as due to this type of orikaeshi-mei I would look more in towards early Muromachi if thinking of Bizen. Of course that could be totally ignored in evaluation but I think it is important factor.

 

Unfortunately I can't say too much about details on the blade from the pictures (and I am not skilled enough in detail stuff anyway). However based on the shape & size, orikaeshi-mei and horimono I think it is an interesting item.

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Thanks for all the comments and advice so far. 

 

My only real concern with the sword is this little kizu (I believe it is called Uchikomi?) circled in red.  I'm sure it looks a lot worse than it is since the photo is blown up.  There is also some pitting towards the mune which is maybe kitae-ware?  How badly do these detract from the sword?  I only noticed them in the additional pics they sent though, they are not really visible in the marketing ones.  From what I have read I believe these are not fatal flaws.  

 

1607115309_InkedIMG_7389conv_LI.thumb.jpg.da43da1a760d623ef431dd388b18e9e2.jpg  1254366723_IMG_7382conv.thumb.jpeg.d3ab39c997cb046c4f3c078f994b07fb.jpeg

 

 

2 hours ago, Surfson said:

Because of this, when the sword is photographed upright, the mei is upside down.

I hadn't fully understood the difference between the different mei's we were discussing but this makes sense and explains why it is on the wrong side of the sword to what I would expect.

 

Kind regards,

John

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@Jussi Ekholm Thank you for that very interesting information.  I'm guessing that means it was originally made to be worn blade facing up?  I'm also guessing this means there is a very high chance of the NBTHK coming back with a different attribution.  

 

I would be very interested to see what the NBTHK attribute it to, although it may just be a bit risky for me to take a punt on at this stage.  I will see if I can convince them to send it to them before making a purchase.  

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That is how it is commonly how change in signature side is thought to have evolved that when swords were starting to be worn through the belt in opposite direction from before. However it would have been just as easy to mount blade in various ways regardless on how it was signed. As well as there were forms of suspension and ways of tying katana to be slung from waist like a tachi.

 

I think most dealers in Japan know what premium NBTHK papers bring to table compared to others in financial sense. I personally like NTHK papers and it is nice that they provide more info in their paper than NTHK so you can follow their logic more easily. However on big name items I would definately go to NBTHK. While I am not too focused on financial side of the hobby, I see the financial upside just so much larger with NBTHK compared to other organizations. However I must say there is of course potential in NTHK papered items, and they can often be acquired for lower cost. Although I couldn't afford a certain partially signed tachi that had NTHK papers with Japanese dealer some years ago, I am still kicking myself a bit over it as it went on to get NBTHK papers to different smith of the same school and price doubled...

 

I know you hear often buy the sword not the papers etc. but authentication brings certain amount of confidence to the field. Regardless of the organization authenticating they do carry value in market point of view. Having few different opinions on an item is in my opinion better than one even if they would be different.

 

Personally I am wondering how Japanese dealer would not send a quality item to NBTHK (as I feel it greatly adds marketability to the item) but people have different views on things. And like on my example above there was that tachi with NTHK papers up for sale at Japanese dealer site for several years, so I guess I wasn't the only one standing idle. Smith like Tomomitsu is a great attribution and the blade most likely shows something good in the opinion of shinsa team.

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15 hours ago, John F said:

How badly do these detract from the sword? 

 

Hi John,

 

I'm new to all this, so doubtless more knowledgeable members will shoot this down if not correct (and feel free to ignore if this is an egg-sucking lesson), but in the spirit of trying to help, here's my 2d worth.

 

There are trade-offs regarding age and condition.  The two rules-of-thumb seem to be (paraphrasing many posts on NMB):

  • Condition is very important for market value
  • The older a blade is, the more leeway you have regarding condition

Late Edo blades should be pretty much perfect and there are a lot of them to choose from.  However, 700-800 year old Kamakura or Nanbokucho blades are unlikely to be in the same condition, due to multiple polishes (possibly exposing ware and other kizu) and also potential battle damage, and all ages/conditions in between, and there are a lot less of them on the market, so the principle of supply/demand means buyers may accept lower standards in terms of condition.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

 

 

EDIT:  Obviously, this relates to market value.  In terms of value to you personally, it depends how much you like a blade.  i.e. It might be over-priced, but if its a "must have" for you, you might be prepared to pay the asking price, even with condition issues!

 

 

 

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Many thanks for the advice.  I think most of the small kizu I would accept due to the age of the blade.  The one below the Hamon line was the biggest concern.  

 

I had to make a decision today on this blade and I have decided to pass on it.  It wasn't just the kizu but also the attribution and a few of the things that have come out in the course of this thread.  I have told them that if they decide to send it to the NBTHK, I would be interested in the result and may change my mind in the future.  At where I am in this hobby, I want to have more certainty of what I am buying and there were just too many question marks with this one.  

 

Thanks and much appreciation to everyone who offered their advice to me.  I may not have gone through with this but I have learned a lot in the process.

 

All the best,

John

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