Trying to identify a sword

[Jolissa]

 

I am looking to see if this sword might be genuine and hopefully find some information on it. If its real, I think its an 1883 Navy Sword with nine leaf guard from WW2 but that is a guess. It does have a Mon that I have searched and understand its a common name. Was going to take out the pin but thought I would start here first. 

 

Cheers Neil

[noneed2hate]

Hi Neil,

While I may not know much about these swords, it would greatly help out the other members who do if you are able to take some photos of the actual blade itself and post them here.

 

Thanks!

 

-George

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Neil, welcome to the board, good to see another Aussie here. Yes it is original and quite nice mounts with Mon. The real make or break will come down to the blade, usually these swords have older blades.

[Bruce Pennington]

The mon is the 3-layered pine tree.  Don't know the family names associated with it.  Discussed on the Mons Forum HERE

[wiktor69]

Sankaimatsu/ maru

Amano family. One nail on the third floor pine / circle
The Takeda clan, originally called Mochizuki or Yamagami. Katsumitsu Amano served Nobukatsu Oda, but after his fall he obeyed Ieyasu.

Maru ni Sankamatsu

Shimoshima family. Mr. Shimoshima, who is called the descendant of Hidetsugu Fujiwara's third son, is a clan of the Oshu Gokan style and has Masashige as his ancestor. Masashige served Shingen Takeda and Katsuyori, but belonged to Nagayasu Okubo after the destruction of Takeda. He served Ieyasu when his son was Masanori.

(www.harimaya.com)

[Jolissa]

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

I have got a few more images of the blade and overall measurements. The blade may look marked but it is actually covered in vasoline. My grandfather did that 60+ years ago to protect it. I think the blade is fine but I dont want to remove the vasoline until I know more about how to care for the blade. Did the magnet test and it is steel.

 

I would like to remove the handle to find out more about the blade but I am in no rush to do that until I know more about the process. If it is a Naval Officers sword, what would I expect to find on the tang? I assume there will be a makers mark but would I also expect to find any information about the original owner? Name, rank etc?

 

 

[wiktor69]

Just have to get a punch the same size as the small end and knock it out. It'll come.

I do this with a bamboo chopstick. if the handle is tight, you can knock with the edge of your palm on the back of the handle.
"what a man makes - the second will break anyway". Good luck.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Jolissa said:

I assume there will be a makers mark but would I also expect to find any information about the original owner? Name, rank etc?

Neil,

Just seeing the aging of the nakago can often give guys an idea of the era the blade was made.  Smith names are often found there, and sometimes dates.  It is very uncommon to find a note of whom the blade was made for. 

[Jolissa]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Neil,

 It is very uncommon to find a note of whom the blade was made for. 

 

Thanks, time to pop the pin I think. I know this may sound like madness but I was hoping that it could identify the Officer it was given to. I was hoping to try to return it to the family.

[Bruce Pennington]

25 minutes ago, Jolissa said:

hoping to try to return it to the family.

Anxious to see it.  And your sentiment is honorable and heard often on NMB.

[NewB]

The lines separating the 'upper' and 'lower' part of your blade look amazingly crisp. I certainly hope you have read how to preserve it until you decide its fate. It looks very healthy IMHO assuming the brown spots are not deep rust!

 

 

J.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Don't take the handle apart like in Victor's photo, removing the pin and intact handle assembly is all that is needed. 

[wiktor69]

16 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Don't take the handle apart like in Victor's photo, removing the pin and intact handle assembly is all that is needed.

Right, I just showed what's inside))))

[Jolissa]

I pulled the pin but there is only markings on one side. I am guessing it is the makers mark and does not identify the owner of the sword? No idea what the second hole is but it looks old as well.

 

Can someone point me to anywhere I can help is working out what this says?

[Jolissa]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:44 PM, Darkcon said:

The lines separating the 'upper' and 'lower' part of your blade look amazingly crisp. I certainly hope you have read how to preserve it until you decide its fate. It looks very healthy IMHO assuming the brown spots are not deep rust!

 

 

J.

 

Definitely no rust on the blade, its covered in vaseline that has been on it for at 40 years. Can't see any marks on the blade at all. At this stage, I have no idea how to look after it. I just got it from my father who has had it in a cupboard for a very long time.

[wiktor69]

Большой меч, поздравляю.
Второе отверстие указывает на то, что меч ранее имел традиционную форму, а затем был укорочен.

Правильная позиция для чтения:

 

 濃州関住源天秀 (鍛之)

[noneed2hate]

Not able to immediately find the middle two kanji in my reference material but here is what I've got thus far in the attached picture. These are my best guesses.

Great looking blade by the way.

I concur with Victor on this blade having been shortened slightly. The filled mekugi ana and chopped nakago are fairly good indicators of this. 

[Geraint]

Dear Neil.

 

I can't clearly make out the mei from your photographs but The last two kanji are the smiths name and that is Amahide, I think the rest will define him as this man, https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/AMA8

 

It's a nice thing, however, while as Bruce has said your intentions are admirable in wishing to return the sword to the family of it's owner two things stand in your way; firstly, there is no way of identifying the officer who carried it, and secondly even if you could find out who to return it to they would most likely not be interested.  

 

Your best course of action would be to make it the foundation of your own collection, you have already started on the research quest after all,  or to pass it on to another collector who will care for it as it deserves.

 

All the best.

 

(George beat me to the punch but if you combine our posts you get most of it.)

 

[Jolissa]

2 hours ago, Geraint said:

and secondly even if you could find out who to return it to they would most likely not be interested.  

 

 

Obviously my desire to return it was based on the thinking that the family would value it. Guessing that's not the case? 

 

Doesn't really matter anyway as there is no way of knowing who owned it. No idea what I will do with it. Not really a sword collector, it does have some family value as my grandfather gave it clean and coated it with vaseline, he left his thumb print in it. He passed over 40 years ago. Maybe I will keep it for that.

 

Is it worth any money to a collector? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Neil, I say keep it as a family Heirloom. There are collectors here in Australia that can give you a value estimate for insurance.

[Brian]

Condition dependant, but to counter any possible email lowball offers, it would be worth upwards of $1000, and possibly closer to $2K

[PNSSHOGUN]

That is pretty low for a good combat navy kyu gunto, it would be at least 2-3000AUD.