New Tosogu Quality

[vajo]

from chinese producers.

Frightning.

 

Tsuba $90 (2 x available)

 

 

sofecoke sword | eBay Stores

 

Hard Times 

[b.hennick]

I agree. They will be bought, enhanced, and resold many times.

[Fred Geyer]

Look at the Ebay site he has sold hundreds of the fake fittings, one more way to ruin a hobby for the new person 

 

everyone should look at what they are producing to educate yourself 

 

Fred Geyer  

[DRDave]

Outright fakes and "helped" U.S. Colt single actions got to be so prevalent and convincing that smart collectors wouldn't buy one without an authentication letter from John Kopec. 
It wasn't long before the authentication letters were faked. 

[Brian]

Not to mention the whole RL Wilson saga!

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

A thriving forgery market shows that our hobby is in strong health, less no market for them would exist. This does not bother me for that reason

[vajo]

Thats true Jesse,

but i'm fascinated to see such quality and details for $30. I would like to see chinese blade e.g. from simon lee fitted with that kind of replics. Such a sword would look good in my opinion.

 

[mas4t0]

I would disagree about fakes indicating good health. The market for cheap reproductions is clearly a different market than the market for genuine antiques. It's the same argument as with counterfeits and high-fashion clothing.

 

The production and sale of counterfeits does indicate a strong desire for the product, but at a much lower price than the genuine article. Every economic analysis I've seen on this has shown that this does harm to the brand, as it dilutes out the brand equity.

 

A large part of what makes a luxury good desirable is that most others cannot afford it and that it signals status through it's high price. With a large and high-quality market of counterfeits, the goods are more readily available and the perceived value is reduced.

 

There's nothing that can be done other then to educate ourselves and others, but I think it's wishful thinking to assume that this isn't harmful for serious collectors.

[Jean]

Frightening, were it not for the price, I would not have guessed they are fakes…

[vajo]

I wonder how he gets such fine details from casting. They are lightyears away from the normal chinese stuff for replica and training katana. In the right hands it will be hard to judge from photos if its real or not.

 

[mas4t0]

6 hours ago, vajo said:

I wonder how he gets such fine details from casting. They are lightyears away from the normal chinese stuff for replica and training katana. In the right hands it will be hard to judge from photos if its real or not.

 

 

I'd assume they're made of copper, bronze, brass, aluminium or zinc and are cast in plaster moulds.

 

It's not a complex process, but it's significantly more labor intensive than investment (lost-wax) casting.

[Spartancrest]

Jean L. What frightens me is a huge number of fakes that are listed at the high end of prices not the low.

You might laugh at some of these: https://www.jauce.com/auction/c738641596

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/254393179943  -  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265400937434  -  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313782033171   [WTF]

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/324320515489 - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313782032622 - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265418601464

The two cast replicas below are ridiculously priced for their scrap value - I have two myself and have images of nearly a dozen just like them - all but one are fakes.

And these are not as good as the new ones coming out.

Mark: I swear some fakes are punched out in the same manner as coinage - industrial counterfeits!

 

You might like to check the prices on these modern fakes.

[mas4t0]

Just for clarity, the process for making contemporary coins (machine-struck coinage) involves the use of blanks of uniform thickness and dyes to emboss the design. There is a lot of fine detail, but the process is limited. While a set of dyes can produce thousands of coins, the dyes are expensive to produce and the depth of the design is very shallow.

 

Dye casting is a possibility, but I'm not sure you could achieve this level of detail, and to have any chance of doing so you'd likely need the dyes to be hand carved by Ford Hallam. This could be quite the challenge for even someone of his level of mastery, as the design would need to be carved as a negative.

 

Plaster casting is more labour intensive than investment casting, as the plaster mould is single use, but it isn't a prohibitively expensive process. The main difference to investment casting is that you remove a couple of layers of abstraction from the original piece (retaining more detail).

 

With investment casting you:

1. Select the piece you'll be reproducing, known as the master pattern (in this case, likely an original tsuba).
2. Create a mould (known as the master dye) of the master pattern.
3. Produce a wax pattern. I have seen Chinese fittings (for Jian) being made without the use of a master pattern, with the single use wax pattern being hand carved.
4. Apply investment materials, often a ceramic slurry, which is then cured.
5. Dewax, melt and remove the internal wax to leave a clean ceramic shell.
6. Burnout the mould to remove any moisture and residual wax.
7. Fill the mould (with molten metal).
8. Remove the shell to release the casting.
9. Finish the workpiece.

With plaster casting you:

1. Select the piece you'll be reproducing, known as the master pattern (in this case, likely an original tsuba).
2. Create a plaster mould.
3. Bake the mould to remove any excess water.
4. Fill the mould (with molten metal).
5. Break the mould to release the casting.
6. Finish the workpiece.

 

As you can intuit from the process difference, this makes quite a lot of difference to the detail retained in the finished piece and the labour costs involved. Fred Lohman in the US has been making quite nice cast fittings for martial arts use for a long time. I would presume that he's plaster casting too, but I don't know for sure. Fred Lohman's pricing is a fair bit higher than the prices mentioned in the OP if I recall correctly. I would presume that the difference is mostly due to the difference in labour costs in China vs the US.

 

I think at the prices mentioned in the OP that these are good value given the labour involved, assuming of course that you know what you're buying and they're not misrepresented by the seller.

[mas4t0]

Investment casting of Chinese sword fittings (with a carved wax pattern) is shown here at 9:40 if you're curious about the process.

 

https://youtu.be/bajGAnLqy-E

 

[vajo]

Thanks Mark for the detailed explaning. So there is a lot of work in casting i think. I thought that is much easier. 

[Spartancrest]

You can even get them 3D printed in iron!  https://www.shapeways.com/product/MUY24XDDZ/mokko-manji-tsunagi-tsuba-katana?optionId=211261926&li=marketplace - See also https://www.shapeways.com/materials

If you can print in metal then there goes the whole ball game! It won't be long before you can print the patina as well!

[Stephen]

All in all if your a beginner iaido putting together a sword for your practice they serve a purpose. 

[Jord505]

The seller sofecoke (who youve shared photos of there fittings) doesn’t actually list their items as genuine or antique. 
 

These fittings have always been used for higher quality shinken, or iaito both in Japan and in the west. Ive personally seen a few Japanese sellers selling modern shinsakuto with these exact fittings. They serve their purpose.

 

I’m looking for high quality silver (or silver looking) seppa for a sword of mine, where can I actually find quality fittings that i require other than sofecoke? Fred lohman dosnt reply to me, and i cant find anyone else that sells quality, attractive seppa.

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1059682033  silver

https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1081618789  silver

https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1081694665 brass?

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1081618633 dark bronze

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1082599688 copper

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124118105589 silver plated

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333365588420 silver plated

[Jord505]

On 3/4/2023 at 11:37 PM, Spartancrest said:

https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1059682033  silver

https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1081618789  silver

https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1081694665 brass?

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1081618633 dark bronze

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1082599688 copper

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/124118105589 silver plated

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333365588420 silver plated

These are all chinese made, or generic or low quality. 

[Toryu2020]

Fred Lohman passed away some three years ago now. His son Chris is swamped with back orders and is trying to meet his fathers obligations. Not sure they'll ever be back to full operation.

 

Meirin Sangyo is the oldest supplier of Iaito in Japan - they produce high quality modern tsuba for Iaito and probably could produce whatever you need. They have english speaking staff... －鍔職人が作る現代新作鍔（オーダーメイドもできます）－　日本刀の明倫産業 (nipponto.co.jp)

 

 

-t

[Jord505]

14 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Fred Lohman passed away some three years ago now. His son Chris is swamped with back orders and is trying to meet his fathers obligations. Not sure they'll ever be back to full operation.

 

Meirin Sangyo is the oldest supplier of Iaito in Japan - they produce high quality modern tsuba for Iaito and probably could produce whatever you need. They have english speaking staff... －鍔職人が作る現代新作鍔（オーダーメイドもできます）－　日本刀の明倫産業 (nipponto.co.jp)

 

 

-t

Thank you. Terrible news about Fred, no one had told me.

 

i was recently at meirin, nice guys but very little english throughout the business. I will try my luck, thank you!