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WW2 GENDAITO KATANA MORINOBU 1942 + FULL SHINGUNTO MOUNTS TYPE 98 Japanese SwordHi


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Hi everyone I wanted to start a new thread because this sword didn’t have a star stamped as shown in book of John Slough Dose that effect it not being a one million yen and medium to high grade? Or dose it matter? 

 


 Thanks Steve 

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1,000,000 ¥ is a rating for the smith and has no direct connection to whether the sword has a star stamp or not.

 

I think the best approach is to evaluate the workmanship of your sword itself, irrespective of whether or not it has a stamp. That will tell you its quality. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, he was an excellent smith and this is one I handled earlier. It was a very beautiful gendaito.

 

 

 

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Ray for your inside tip

of no star stamped another concern is a couple of flea bites nicks which I’m guessing from polish 

it is very glass shiny at least it’s by a known smith what dose one million yen mean? 
goodto see u have one by the same smith 

 

steve

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It's like saying someone is a 5 star smith. It's a comparative ranking, comparing him to other 4 star smiths. Doesn't mean his work is worth 1M Yen. Just that he is highly ranked. Irrespective of a stamp or not. The lack of the star just means that sword was made outside of the RJT program. So maybe a private order, or made before he joined the program. Small nicks are preferable to having them all polished out and the entire cutting edge having to be reduced. It looks to be in decent full and traditional polish. Something that is unlikely to be done on a Showato. I wouldn't be concerned about anything there.

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19 hours ago, Swords said:

Hi everyone I wanted to start a new thread because this sword didn’t have a star stamped as shown in book of John Slough Dose that effect it not being a one million yen and medium to high grade? Or dose it matter? 


Thanks Steve 

 

Francois posted this link in one of your other threads.  Good info on the rating system used in the Toko Taikan and other systems.

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Great info thanks guys I know what you mean about flea nicks Having been polished out and reducing the cutting edge 

good info about ranking I will need some time and coffee to read the rankings Its a lot to absorb for me but great information  I do appreciate it Not sure

8 hours ago, Brian said:

Not sure I understand Something that is unlikely to be done on a Showato.?

 

Many thanks 

 

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15 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

As I said above, this yen value is simply used as a relative rating of the smith. This comes from the Toko Taikan (swordsmith reference). It is not an actual price value. 

Hi Ray I saw back in October you were selling a sword like mine for Andy 

was it this sword? And what price 

just curious 🤨 

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Steve,
What I mean is that someone is unlikely to have paid for a full decent polish on a mass produced blade. Even during the war. So the fact that yours is in good polish also points towards it being a decent Gendaito.

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Got it I wouldn’t know the difference between a good polish or bad ! I’m guessing Its post war ?

If that’s the case dose that add value then if it was original polish .?

The pictures don’t do in justice!

Never saw one with    
A-mirror finish such as this one!  I took a soft cloth with a little Choi that left dark spots and freaked so I took a cleaner one and wiped it in one direction and it disappeared  scared the crap out of me! 
I  thought the hamon would be more active wavy but maybe that’s the smiths style?

I wish I knew some one close to me with more experience than I 

 

Steve 

 

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Dear Steve.

 

As regards the 'original polish', when a blade is polished the nakago is left as is, in other words not polished at all.  As all polishes remove metal then this can often be seen in older swords where the thickness of the back of the blade changes just above the nakago.  Metal has been removed from the blade, not the nakago, and so the blade thins noticeably just above the nakago.  In this case the idea that the polish is original means that you are seeing the sword as it was made, everything will be healthy rather than tired.  A blade that has seen several polishes is thinner, narrower, may have changed its curvature and may reveal core steel.  

 

As for the hamon, you are right, this is what the smith chose to do.  There are a huge variety of hamon patterns, easy to look up.  Many smiths are known for a particular style, others will produce work in a variety of styles.  If you have a look at the thread Ray linked, specifically his description of the hamon, you will see that in the case of that sword the hamon contains a mixture of features.  By the by, also have a look at the photograph that shows ubu ba, an unsharpened section a few centimetres from the ha machi.  If your sword is in original polish then it is quite likely that it will also have this feature.

 

All the best.

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4 hours ago, Swords said:

Hi Ray I saw back in October you were selling a sword like mine for Andy 

was it this sword? And what price 

just curious 🤨 

 

I was not involved in the sword that was sold by Eric, the one I assisted with went to a collector in Europe, and I believe it is still there. 

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18 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

 

I was not involved in the sword that was sold by Eric, the one I assisted with went to a collector in Europe, and I believe it is still there. 

Hi Geraint 

 

19 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear Steve.

 

As regards the 'original polish', when a blade is polished the nakago is left as is, in other words not polished at all.  As all polishes remove metal then this can often be seen in older swords where the thickness of the back of the blade changes just above the nakago.  Metal has been removed from the blade, not the nakago, and so the blade thins noticeably just above the nakago.  In this case the idea that the polish is original means that you are seeing the sword as it was made, everything will be healthy rather than tired.  A blade that has seen several polishes is thinner, narrower, may have changed its curvature and may reveal core steel.  

 

As for the hamon, you are right, this is what the smith chose to do.  There are a huge variety of hamon patterns, easy to look up.  Many smiths are known for a particular style, others will produce work in a variety of styles.  If you have a look at the thread Ray linked, specifically his description of the hamon, you will see that in the case of that sword the hamon contains a mixture of features.  By the by, also have a look at the photograph that shows ubu ba, an unsharpened section a few centimetres from the ha machi.  If your sword is in original polish then it is quite likely that it will also have this feature.

 

All the best.

Hi I probably should have started a new thread but here are more pictures can you tell by the hamon pattern I’m trying to find a comparison for this sword how it’s supposed to be 

 

steve

 

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On 11/25/2021 at 2:41 PM, Geraint said:

Dear Steve.

 

As regards the 'original polish', when a blade is polished the nakago is left as is, in other words not polished at all.  As all polishes remove metal then this can often be seen in older swords where the thickness of the back of the blade changes just above the nakago.  Metal has been removed from the blade, not the nakago, and so the blade thins noticeably just above the nakago.  In this case the idea that the polish is original means that you are seeing the sword as it was made, everything will be healthy rather than tired.  A blade that has seen several polishes is thinner, narrower, may have changed its curvature and may reveal core steel.  

 

As for the hamon, you are right, this is what the smith chose to do.  There are a huge variety of hamon patterns, easy to look up.  Many smiths are known for a particular style, others will produce work in a variety of styles.  If you have a look at the thread Ray linked, specifically his description of the hamon, you will see that in the case of that sword the hamon contains a mixture of features.  By the by, also have a look at the photograph that shows ubu ba, an unsharpened section a few centimetres from the ha machi.  If your sword is in original polish then it is quite likely that it will also have this feature.

 

All the best.

Thanks for the info I added more pictures because I wanted to show this hamon to compare it for other swords made by this smith I couldn’t find others so I’m guessing it’s the same 

 

steve

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On 11/25/2021 at 2:41 PM, Geraint said:

Dear Steve.

 

As regards the 'original polish', when a blade is polished the nakago is left as is, in other words not polished at all.  As all polishes remove metal then this can often be seen in older swords where the thickness of the back of the blade changes just above the nakago.  Metal has been removed from the blade, not the nakago, and so the blade thins noticeably just above the nakago.  In this case the idea that the polish is original means that you are seeing the sword as it was made, everything will be healthy rather than tired.  A blade that has seen several polishes is thinner, narrower, may have changed its curvature and may reveal core steel.  

 

As for the hamon, you are right, this is what the smith chose to do.  There are a huge variety of hamon patterns, easy to look up.  Many smiths are known for a particular style, others will produce work in a variety of styles.  If you have a look at the thread Ray linked, specifically his description of the hamon, you will see that in the case of that sword the hamon contains a mixture of features.  By the by, also have a look at the photograph that shows ubu ba, an unsharpened section a few centimetres from the ha machi.  If your sword is in original polish then it is quite likely that it will also have this feature.

 

All the best.

Hi you all just a couple of questions I wanted to get from all this 

1 I tried to find anything examples of this style hamon but could not !

Also because it’s not star stamped dose this make it any less or does it matter?

 

 Thanks Steve 

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4 hours ago, Swords said:

 

 

 

Also because it’s not star stamped dose this make it any less or does it matter?

 

 Thanks Steve 

Steve,

Because your sword is dated 5/17  (May 1942), it is unlikely to have a star stamp. So it is probably made using his 'usual' source of tamahagane. So, short answer, it is OK to not have a star up to mid 1942. After that date, the star/no star situation changes.

While there may be a few exceptions, the RJT scheme star does not appear on tangs until the last half of 1942, and from my experience, usually in the last 3 months of 1942, So to have the star after mid 1942 confirms quality.

To not have a star on a known RJT smith tang after mid 1942 can mean:

1.  it failed RJT standards guidelines, was not stamped and was "sold outside the system"....this must? mean it is lower quality/has faults etc.

2.  it was made privately by a RJT smith....this raises the question...where did he get the tamahagane etc. I don't know the rules for private work.

 

So, yours seems OK without a star...and to answer your question, the star confirms quality in a blade, but not having it does not "make it less" - that depending on the date  on the tang and the quality of the work.

Regards,

 

 

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George Good info thanks some one else said it was probably made private outside of RJT you mentioned

I would hope it wasn’t #1 but since it’s rated one million yen I think not 

 

steve

 

 

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From what I got out of this was since the star stamped was instituted in the later part of 1942 by the RJT mine would not have it  

because it was made in the early part of 1942 no star stamped or sold privately out side of RJT so to me it’s a little confused as to which one 

 

Steve 

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Just for interest, I have 3 star-stamped blades on file in early '42.  But like George said, the massive majority are found  in the last half of '42 and beyond.  Another factor is that many smiths didn't become RJT qualified until later in the war.  Some guys are able to look up the date when particular smiths became certified, but I don't know how.  So, it's possible this smith was making high-quality nihonto for several years before he became RJT certified, so another reason to understand that the lack of star doesn't really tell you much, either positive or negative, about a blade.

 

1942, Feb

Saga

Masatsugu

 

Ganko, NMB

1942, Mar

Gunma

Kanetsugu

RS

Ganko, NMB

1942, Spring

Gifu

Kanenobu

RS

Ganko, NMB

1942, Aug

Akita

Chikamitsu

406

Peter(C),NMB

1942, Aug

Saga

Masatsugu

 

Kapp/Monson,pg82

1942, Aug

Fukushima

Shigefusa

Ho on mune

MeCox, NMB

1942, Aug

Tokyo

Sukehiro

1525

Slough, pg 162

1942, Aug

Saga

Yoshitada

 

ebay

1942, Sep

Kumamoto

Morinobu

94; Ho Ho mune

 

1942, Autumn

Niwa

Kanenobu

 

Slough

1942, Oct

Nagano

Chikafusa

435

EdwardG,NMB

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Nothing is easy but good info So the way it’s interpreted or how I see it as you said earlier 1942 there was no RJT

no star until later 1942
as you pointed out he made high end sword 

to private persons Another person 

said that smith used tamahagane?

 

 

 

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It is 100% traditionally made of tamahagane, in great condition, in good polish and by a known smith. It is a true Gendaito, likely made for sale or for an order during the war and would paper if sent.
Stop stressing about it. There is no down side here.

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I wanted to thank everyone for there info

And time spent I was stressed earlier but 

I love this sword!  It’s probably the higher end of my collection! Anyway a couple of people on the forum said it was made with tamahagane? How can you tell?

 

 

steve

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