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Ko-Wakidzashi for comments


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Picked up this waki on gun show. Nowadays I almost don't see any nihonto on shows any more, just some WWII stuff...This one is puzzling me. Nagasa is 308mm, just a bit longer, then tanto. Motogasane 5.8mm, motohaba 29.7mm, sori 3.8mm, nakago 120.6mm Hada is very tight itame with some large itame elements, very hard to see. Hamon is mostly formed by nioi with very few nei.

It is mumei, so no hints... So, what do you think about it? Shinto Bizen? Shinshinto?

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Hi Oleg,

 

Not many replies so far, probably because its a difficult one.

 

Does not land in Sue-Bizen for me. The blade itself looks well made and later, the nakago appears later.

 

Without spending a lot of time looking at the clues its hard give an opinion. Was thinking one of the "country smith" schools that worked in other styles such as Bizen, maybe, forget the name as brain hasnt fired up yet. (so still considering late Koto)

 

Got some clues there, file marks, shape of nakago, boshi (looks distinct) and clear blade showing details.

 

If get time over next few days will take another look.

 

Cheers

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I think this might better be called a sunnobi tantō rather than a wakizashi. It's right on the borderline of classification, but I think at this size and with this construction (hirazukuri) it's more appropriate to call it a tantō. Your mileage may vary

 

 

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2 hours ago, SteveM said:

I think this might better be called a sunnobi tantō rather than a wakizashi. It's right on the borderline of classification, but I think at this size and with this construction (hirazukuri) it's more appropriate to call it a tantō. Your mileage may vary

 

 

You right, it is right on the border. But in this particular case considering size and form of nakago and sori I think ko-wakidzasi will be more appropriate term. But, I can be wrong.

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The hada is very dense and without o-hada or ware or anything else common in late Muromachi. The nakago is also a bit light for that. Hamon does not show any sub-structure, a single mass. It appears to be late. 

I think its owari 1700 or even somewhat later, related to:

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/A42776_T3546_PUP_E.htm

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13 hours ago, Rivkin said:

The hada is very dense and without o-hada or ware or anything else common in late Muromachi. The nakago is also a bit light for that. Hamon does not show any sub-structure, a single mass. It appears to be late. 

I think its owari 1700 or even somewhat later, related to:

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/A42776_T3546_PUP_E.htm

Maybe you right, but all Owari tanto I saw was bit on the heavy end, with thick blades. Also all of them had no sori. But again - my experience is very limited.

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On 10/25/2021 at 11:50 AM, GrozaB said:

I will try to make better photos today, but this one is hard one photo

For what its worth, think Kirill may be on the right track.

 

Very difficult from these images. Sue Mino Jihada is said to be blackish, i can only speak of the typical Sue Mino i have seen and when put next to later blades then it becomes more obvious. The blade above,  steel seems more refined than Sue Mino. Im looking at pictures though so a lot easier for you to judge.

 

I also think Mino when i look at the blade, but not the end of the Muromachi, more Edo. 

 

Perhaps wrong and is Sue Mino, or later Owari, but wouldnt be surprised if it turned out to be something like Jumyo or obscure smith. 

 

Unless its textbook then attribution is difficult, be good to see what a Shinsa team calls it.

 

Ps, pc only lets me reply if i quote someone, not sure what the hell is going on.

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6 hours ago, Alex A said:

Perhaps wrong and is Sue Mino, or later Owari, but wouldnt be surprised if it turned out to be something like Jumyo or obscure smith

On another forum (https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/188/2736762.html) BurN attributed this sword to Jumyo Mino-Owari, late Edo. His attribution usually very good even in case of bad photos. +/-200 years :) I spend last few days looking on Jumyo blades from koto to late edo. More or less this one matches Jumyo style. But few things still don't really fit - hada is close match to Sue Koto sword, hamon is more shinto, nakago conditions screams shinshinto... Also almost all late Jumyo I saw had may, with very few been mumei. As I understand Jumyo swords was very popular as gifts and mei played important role in it.

Submitting this one to shinsa... I'm not sure it worth it. I defiantly not high end sword, and papers will change very little of that. 

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1 hour ago, GrozaB said:

On another forum (https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/188/2736762.html) BurN attributed this sword to Jumyo Mino-Owari, late Edo. His attribution usually very good even in case of bad photos. +/-200 years :) I spend last few days looking on Jumyo blades from koto to late edo. More or less this one matches Jumyo style. But few things still don't really fit - hada is close match to Sue Koto sword, hamon is more shinto, nakago conditions screams shinshinto... Also almost all late Jumyo I saw had may, with very few been mumei. As I understand Jumyo swords was very popular as gifts and mei played important role in it.

Submitting this one to shinsa... I'm not sure it worth it. I defiantly not high end sword, and papers will change very little of that. 

 

 

I dont think its Shinshinto, more early Edo for me

 

Thing about nakago, sometimes they are in good preservation and the other side of the coin is who is to say it wasn't messed with at a later date 

 

Along these lines maybe 

Early Edo period Katana Unsigned by Jumyo for sale | Samurai Museum Shop

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58 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

 

I dont think its Shinshinto, more early Edo for me

 

Thing about nakago, sometimes they are in good preservation and the other side of the coin is who is to say it wasn't messed with at a later date 

 

Along these lines maybe 

Early Edo period Katana Unsigned by Jumyo for sale | Samurai Museum Shop

I'm puzzled. All shinto work I saw had no sori and much ticker and heavier blades.

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Hi Oleg,

 

Nothing factual about who made your sword, just thoughts.

 

I have a Mino Sunnobi tanto, luckily for me its signed and made life a little easier. It did not come with any shinsa papers so i spent much time looking into the blade and tried to work out the date it was made. A bunch of smiths with the same name working from around 1530 and well into the Edo period. Tanto of this form did not not just cease to be made all of a sudden, its a grey area, not black and white. I would look at a similar papered tanto described as "Edo" and think how have they come to than conclusion?. When you look at mass produced Sue-Koto  and compare it to something later you see the difference. Im not saying Sue-Koto is all bad by the way, big fan, has character, such works by the likes of Kanesfusa et al i find amazing.  As mentioned, the dark steel is a big clue to working out whether Sue-Mino or not. At the end of the Muromachi period things changed, smiths went their own way and set up new schools such as Jumyo and blades changed over time, maybe yours is part of the transition, dunno

 

Im not sure exactly what you mean when you talk about "thicker" blades.  An example. If im new to the hobby and start to look at Yoroidoshi (armour piercer tanto) for sale online i may get lucky and find 2 or 3 which still have a thick kasane of 10mm and my opinion is formed that this is the norm. Spend 10 years or so looking at Yoroidoshi for sale online and you see the vast majority have been polished down to 6mm or less, Another example, Dotanuki schools swords often described as massive and no doubt some are but spend a lot of time looking on the internet at examples for sale and you will find most are average. Hope you get my point.

 

Gone on a bit, 

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