Possible Type 94 - Looking for information

[Pineview Surplus]

Greetings from Northern Michigan!
 

My name is Robert and I own Pineview Military Surplus and Museum. I have been using various militaria forums over the years to assist in identification and valuation for items in the museum as we take them in and also for consignment items. The latter is what brings me here today. We took in three items from a customer to sell on his behalf: a Type 30 bayonet, a Type 32 cavalry sword, and the item pictured here, which I believe is a Type 94 Shin-Gunto. I know very little on these and even less on proper nomenclature, so please forgive my generic terminology and ignorance. I was hoping to get information and possible ideas as to fair value for these, although I don't know if the bayonet is acceptable to post here. (Suggestions?)

 

I could not find any markings with my untrained eye. I have not removed the "grip" as I'm unsure how to loose the pin holding it and not cause damage. The leather scabbard fits it nicely, although I've not found images of this sword with leather. The customer's grandfather brought home all three items mentioned along with a battle flag as a group, so there's a bit of reliable provenance associated. 

 

I'll let the images do the rest of the talking. Any information is much appreciated. Thanks in advance! 

 

[Pineview Surplus]

[Pineview Surplus]

[Pineview Surplus]

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Robert, welcome to the forums. Well you were close, it isn't a Type 94 but a Type 98 in "combat" mountings typical of the later war period. It is genuine but the blade has certainly seen better days. If you remove that small pin in the handle with a appropriately sized punch you will be able to carefully remove the handle and see if the sword was signed.

 

For reference:

Type 94: http://ohmura-study.net/931.html

 

Type 98: http://ohmura-study.net/934.html

 

 

[Brian]

Get some oil on that blade fast. Oil, wipe, oil wipe....leave a very thin wiped layer of oil. Identifying the WW2 soldier who owned it from his fingerprints is not supposed to be a thing

[Pineview Surplus]

18 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Robert, welcome to the forums.

 

 

 

Thanks for the welcome and clarification! If I'm reading your link correctly, this would have been an officer's sword, correct? It seems the wood and leather scabbard was associated with these in the very late war I would assume, due to material shortages. Also, with your mentioned "combat" mountings, would this sword have been used as a weapon if needed and not just for ceremony? 

 

I was able to remove the wooden dowel and remove the handle and it does appear to be signed. Pics attached. 

[Pineview Surplus]

10 hours ago, Brian said:

Get some oil on that blade fast. Oil, wipe, oil wipe....leave a very thin wiped layer of oil. Identifying the WW2 soldier who owned it from his fingerprints is not supposed to be a thing

 

Thanks for the advice. I have done several wipes and will do a few more over the next day or so and leave the thin coat as you suggest. 

 

And here I thought the prints would help provenance! 

[ChrisW]

Oil the blade itself and nothing more! Do NOT oil the tang.

[Pineview Surplus]

23 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

Oil the blade itself and nothing more! Do NOT oil the tang.

 

That's what I've been doing, thanks!

[ChrisW]

No problem! Looks like it has an interesting hamon!

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, officer sword.  Combat weapon not a dress sword.

 

Someone should be able to translate the smith’s name for you.

[Pineview Surplus]

Thanks to all who responded. I see this thread has fallen a bit and I don't want to spam post. I am still hoping for some estimate of value and a translation of the signature. I don't see a way to edit the title of this thread to reflect that it's a Type 98 in hopes of more info. Also, is there another area for me to post in asking for translation?

 

Thanks again!

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Pineview Surplus said:

translation?

 

 

濃州関住石原兼直作  NoShu SekiJu Ishihara Kanenao Saku

[Pineview Surplus]

19 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

濃州関住石原兼直作  NoShu SekiJu Ishihara Kanenao Saku

 

Thank you very much for that! As I know literally nothing about the smiths for these, can you possibly provide or point me to information regarding this smith? I don't even really know how to read the translation, i.e. which is smith's name, foundry name, date, etc.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Pineview Surplus said:

 

Thank you very much for that! As I know literally nothing about the smiths for these, can you possibly provide or point me to information regarding this smith? I don't even really know how to read the translation, i.e. which is smith's name, foundry name, date, etc.

Smith name 石原兼直 Ishihara Kanenao,WW2 関市 Seki sword smith ,make sword for Army,there is no date on this sword.

During WWII, more than 200 swordsmiths worked only at Seki province to supply qualified swords for their soldiers.  Their names began to appear in Seki Tanrensho Booklet printed in 1939.  Several smiths in this list worked as Rikugun Jumei Tosho (e.g. Nakata Kanehide) and produced both good and poor blades together. However, most of these seki smiths produced low grade Showato and should not be regarded as a Gendaito.  

http://www.jp-sword.com/files/seki/gendaito.html

[Pineview Surplus]

46 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Smith name 石原兼直 Ishihara Kanenao,WW2 関市 Seki sword smith ,make sword for Army,there is no date on this sword.

During WWII, more than 200 swordsmiths worked only at Seki province to supply qualified swords for their soldiers.  Their names began to appear in Seki Tanrensho Booklet printed in 1939.  Several smiths in this list worked as Rikugun Jumei Tosho (e.g. Nakata Kanehide) and produced both good and poor blades together. However, most of these seki smiths produced low grade Showato and should not be regarded as a Gendaito.  

http://www.jp-sword.com/files/seki/gendaito.html

 

Fascinating information, thank you! This was exactly what I was looking for.

 

Now, if anyone might suggest what a reasonable retail price for this item might be, I'll have all I think I need. 

Remember, I'm not asking for an appraisal per se, and I'll not source any information I get, but I'd like to sell it for the gentleman in my store and I want to be sure I'm not over or under valuing it.

 

Thanks!

[Bruce Pennington]

You can see the range of prices with a quick ebay search.  Standard, in good shape, officer gunto run $1,000-2,000 USD usually.  Yours still has a good leather cover, to me a plus; but the blade is quite rusted.  I'd say $1,200-1,400 would be a normal price range; but it's been quite a while since I've tried to by a gunto, so my opinion may be outdated.  I'd check a google search to see the range.

[Pineview Surplus]

16 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

You can see the range of prices with a quick ebay search. 

 

 

Yes, I had done that and I did see the price range. Without fully knowing the nuances of this particular sword (or any of them really), I was hesitant to base my valuation on ebay listings. I appreciate your information and advice!