Simpleman

[Simpleman]

Can anyone identify these markings? Any guidance would be very much appreciated.

[SteveM]

Top one looks like 

関森俊治作　Seki Mori Toshiharu saku

 

(Toshiharu Mori, from the town of Seki, made this)

 

Bottom one is the hot-stamp of 関 (Seki). WW2 sword. 

[Simpleman]

Thanks for the reply. That’s not exactly the news I was hoping for, but I appreciate it. It was advertised at auction as considerably older…

[PNSSHOGUN]

If they stand by their listing you have clear recourse to return it. This is undeniably produced during WW2 and non-traditionally made as well. Do you have the old listing handy?

[Simpleman]

https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/tenmoku-auctions-inc/Japanese-samurai-sword-17th-c-2415330

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, listing is way off. This is a Kai Gunto, or WW2 IJA naval officers sword. Originally it would have had a leather or canvas cover over the saya.

[Simpleman]

Thank you, sir. I suppose it’s still a piece of history, though not as old as what they claimed. It’s honestly a little embarrassing. I probably shouldn’t bid on lots I don’t know enough about to spot a false or misleading description…I’ll do my homework next time.

[robinalexander]

Hi Charlie,

 

As you may well know, their auction 'legal rider', which every bidder has to agree to, may cover them for any 'embellishment' or possibly even misrepresentation. 

 

Tenmoku Auctions Inc. attempts to catalog every lot correctly and will attempt to point out any defects, but will not be responsible or liable for the correctness of the catalog or other descriptions of the lot.

 

If it was a 17th C sword you were after and you really didn't want this one then there is nothing wrong with contacting them straight away outlying you case and include the above proof of age. 

 

Its a pretty major piece of mis advertising on their part but nothing ventured, nothing gained...if you don't try you will never know.

 

Good luck.

 

[Simpleman]

I’m afraid you’re right about their rider. I am going to call them tomorrow. I’m not necessarily after a 17th century sword, I’m just a casual collector. That being said, this experience does make me want to learn more about Nihonto and possibly becoming a more educated collector. It does make me wonder, however, how they could have been 300 years off. Seems fairly blatant. I will be interested to hear why they listed it as 17th century…

[ChrisW]

Big reason: profit. They (the auction co. or the original owner) figured more money could be had for an older blade over a WWII blade. It only takes a cursory search on their part to verify this blade is WWII.

Of course, their defense will be "We only say what we were told.. etc etc." So you could argue that they're being lazy too! But that's most auction companies these days. Preying on misinformation is very typical.

[nickm]

I think Brian says it best in the what to do when buying a sword or something links. You're 1st 3 or 4 swords should be books.  I did not follow that philosophy and wasted thousands of dollars.

[Simpleman]

Fortunately, I only paid a WWII sword price…I really appreciate everyone’s support. Great community!

[Simpleman]

@nickm, do you have any books you would recommend? I definitely would like to learn more!

[Bruce Pennington]

Although undated, the large Seki stamp puts the most likely date as 1942 as the massive majority of dated blades with this stamp are '42s.  But he stamp is seen less frequently from 1940-1944.  The fittings are made to have the leather cover over the wooden saya.  These are quite often found on late war kaigunto, so this could point to a '43-'44 date.

 

Posting a few pics for posterity.

[Simpleman]

Ken, this is GREAT! Thank you very much! I’m still learning where all the resources are in this forum, realizing how much I DONT know and already learning a lot. This will definitely help!

[Brian]

@ken kata, rather access that FAQ at the main link above the forum. It's easier and better format and I'll be phasing out the old page eventually.
I'll add that book now.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thomas, (Kiipu), is compiling a great reference for swords here:

 

[Simpleman]

So I want to thank everyone for your responses. Unfortunately the auction house didn’t budge, I refused to pay and they flagged my account with Bidsquare. I won’t be able to participate in any more auctions with Bidsquare. Lesson learned. No big loss if they won’t protect their members. As for the auction house…

 

BUYER BEWARE!!!!

DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH TENMOKU AUCTIONS OF FAIRFIELD, NJ!!! THEY MISREPRESENTED A LOT AND REFUSED TO DO THE RIGHT THING IN THE FACE OF MOUNTING EVIDENCE OF THEIR MISREPRESENTATION!!! 

…my search continues…

[Brian]

That Seki stamp is a very easy and definitive indicator of wartime mass production. If nothing else, failure to notice that or misrepresent it is gross misconduct on their part.
Suggest you appeal that, or even report them to Better Business or whoever until they relent. They cannot rely on disclaimers when the evidence was so obvious.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

They are not the only ones that mess up the description.  Rock Island, right now, as a couple of Rinji gunto listed as NCO swords.  Another of there lots, with 3 blades, looks like the description was copied and pasted from another lot because all 3 descriptions are wrong.

[ChrisW]

Sadly, this is pretty standard with most auction groups. They work as conglomerates (read: cartel) and are only to happy to cheat customers for profit. I'd do what Brian says, make them pay for their lies with some minimal work on your part; sounds like a fair recompense to me!

In the meantime, study all the books and resources you can lay your hands on, read all the things shared here, and when ready: consider buying a blade from a member here or from one of the affiliated dealers! Much less chance of being cheated if you do the above. Maybe even join a local sword group/token kai if possible! I'd suggest finding whichever one is closest to you.