Sugaha on worn/tired Tachi

[ken kata]

Hello Forum/Guys..  

I am still researching this Tachi Blade.. Which is tired/worn..

I don't know the correct term/name for this type of  hamon.

I was looking for examples on the internet, and, came across " Chu sugo ko midare ba upper and Chu sugaha bottom "

( After seeing a  description of a Noritaka Ko Bizen Blade )

 

As I was reading /researching/looking around, the closest blade shape was Figure 162 in the " Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords" book. 

Also, somehow, I was lead to the Katayama Ichimonji School at another site...

Anyway...

It is this hamon that I can not fit in to any description of smiths/schools.

Could it be that the Hamon is worn down beyond it's original temperament?

 

 

Added :  The midare is only one "piece/hump" that is about 7 inches from the Kissaki. the rest is all Chu Sugaha.

 

Thanks for viewing.. 

Alton T 

 

   

 

 

[ChrisW]

If you're asking if a hamon pattern/style can change with polishing. The answer is a resounding yes, especially the more complex ones. If you check "Episode #4" here at http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/episodes.html#polishing styles   you will see that the more polishes a blade receives, the more likely it will change shape and hamon style a bit.

[ken kata]

Hello all,  , good evening.

Thanks Chris, for the link. I like that site.  

Guys.. 

I am trying to know more about the Blades that I have now.

I'm stuck on the  Hamon part ..

and, not sure how else to proceed. 

 

1) The sugata part was..mmmmm

    The shape / length was closest to the "Early Muromachi Katana" , by Bishu Osafune Morikage . 1394 Blade length 72.8 cm 

     The blade I got measures 73 cm .  I used a  carpenter's tape rule ..  + or - 1/16" 

2) The "Observation of the Jihada" was mmm...  " weak " Mokume . hardly anything.  I am going to look and read more later tonight.

3) The Hamon is no longer what it was.. So, there is a ? in that part of "Research".

 

The other "clue" is the Tachi mei ... Noritsune ? i do know  members say the saying is " Research the Blade, not the name. " 

I remember seeing the name here and there, but, I don't bookmark that page before I move on., Thinking I know that site enough.

Lately, I have been at the " KOTO SWORD SCHOOLS "    - Five Schools and The 8 Roads          website. 

 

I am kind of in a dead end now.

Any suggestions on how or where else I might find a way to proceed ? 

I am reading the books and what I could fine and the links you guys provide.

 

Thanks for viewing..

Alton 

 

 

 

 

[ken kata]

I remembered I saw the Noritsune name under "The Katayama Ichimonji School " ,

in "The Main Schools and Evolution of the Bizen Tradition "..

Page i79 of "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords".

But, not sure if this in the Smith..

Got this from The "Koto Schools" site:

Katayama Ichimonji

Noritsune Rayaku Nin 1238 

would those Blades be more like 76 to 82 cm ? although the shape looks close to those ?

   

[Jussi Ekholm]

Do you have a picture of the whole sword and tang & signature Alton?

[ken kata]

Hello Jussi,   

 

 

 

[ken kata]

I do have notes from a previous post on my Blade.

one was ...

You replied /  interpreted to me, with your thoughts on the paper that came with the sword.

It mentioned Narishige and about Kuni Fumi , and, you had a Tach in that in was or might not be the work of a famous smith.....

I did not post good photos back then.. so, you were only working with what I posted then. I was ,and am most thankful..  

 

Guys..

I was reading the other post , " On the subject of Sugata"  by Johan , and, there was a lot of good info. that pertains to what I am trying to do.. 

 

As good advice to me , who is trying to "find the one  out of 25,000 smiths over the centuries "...  I liked Brian's post about " Little Boxes Fixation " .

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

It seems like a very interesting tachi. As you said it seems to have signature Noritsune - 則常. However I think all recorded Noritsune smiths predate 1300, and I don't think this is as old.

 

I do think Early Muromachi (c. beginning of 1400's) might be good viable age guess for this based on the pictures. I am liking the shape but unfortunately the condition might be bit lacking. Hard to estimate from the pictures but I am not sure if the hamon has changed a lot or if it was made in that way. I would think this tachi is in original length (possible slight machi okuri) and bottom hole being original and upper one added for katana style mounting.

 

I think this is worthy of further research

[Gakusee]

Jussi, signed tachi mei as it is plus the patina / yasurime being what it is, I think it might be a bit older than that. The sori in the monouchi moves it beyond the early / mid Kamakura blades. 
Now, of course, the few Noritsune mei I have access to do not look like this at all, which is making me pause. 
Different light sources and different angles can provide a better understanding of the patina and mei. The problem is that this blade is one which must be examined in hand. It is not your standard, straightforward Shinto. 

[SteveM]

Regarding the hamon on your sword, I would say it is too wavy to be "suguha", so it is probably some kind of notare. Your dilemma is probably very typical of sword enthusiasts: the hamon on your sword doesn't quite conform to they hamon you see in books and online, and so you struggle to figure out how to describe it using the arcane language of the Japanese sword world, where things are described in terms of clove heads and cedar trees. 

 

Respect to you for diving into the study of the sword rather than trying to parse the various strokes of the mei. I think you may be off target with Ichimonji, but the Ichimonji enthusiasts on the board would know more than me - and they would probably want to see some clear shots of the hada. 

 

I attach the below just for consideration. Noritsune (Bitchū Seno-o)

 

https://blog.goo.ne.jp/nihontokansho/e/1d2d5734730d70d8908e1b6785b10879

[ken kata]

Thnaks Jussi, Micheal and SteveM.. 

 

Jussi,

This is the original/ first time Post when  " I had more  ignorance, than I have now "... 

 

Noritsune I notice that this does not have a paper. Noritsune is quite rare name, most of them are early Bizen smiths and few other early smiths too. Could you show the signature on this tachi? If it is legitimate signature it is highly valuable. Of course there is always possibility of an unknown smith.

 

Unfortunately I can't say much about the tachi. The highlighted section has some high quality early school Noritsune smiths highlighted. From right to left Yoshioka Ichimonji, Ko-Aoe, Katayama

 

Narishige has the added part in brackets, province unknown, era Muromachi. Narishige seems to be very rare name, only 3 smiths listed during Muromachi in Sesko Index. Kuni fumei is very reasonable explanation in a case like this as signature is rare and there is a high chance the smith is unknown. I have kuni fumei on other one of my tachi and I think it is perfectly reasonable as it is (most likely) not work of famous smiths of same name working at same time period.

Attached is a page with a  "highlighted" section , that came with the Tachi. The Nakago Mei, and, Koshi Bi on the Tachi Blade.

 

 

 

[ken kata]

About the "Grooves".. Jean replied with this: 

 

Not so frequent grooves, the small/thin one (soe bi) is still incredibly healthy for a 13th century blade. Could be added later.

Jean replied this for the Noritsune smiths:

 

Noritsune smiths,

 

One Oshu, 2 Bizen, one Bitchu. The Bitchu one was a son of an Ichimonji smith so the hamon must be in accordance (choji midare).

 

Thanks Jean..  

[ken kata]

Hi SteveM..  

I lost my Facebook account, but, thanks for  the time when you were there.. 

PaulB asked me , in that old post about Ko Aoe...

" Alton

I cant see much in the images but what led you down the Ko-Aoe path? "

 

I will go to that link Steve... 

 

This was from an Old Post by me : 

 

Ref. A - The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords

   TYPES OF MEI

 

          Tachi Mei -   "There are a few exceptions, such as those by....and the sword smiths of the Ko-Aoe School, who carved their signatures on the inner side,   

                                   facing the body, when the sword was worn cutting edge downward.."..    Page 71

 

THE AOE SCHOOL

 

           The Ko-Aoe School -   " The other Family group was called the Senoo  "    Page 141.

            Nakago - Aoe-school swords bear a unique two-character signature, which is inscribed on the side opposite that of the usual Tachi. " Page 142

 

 

[Gakusee]

Koto 2 of the Koza has some interesting facts about some of the “old” Noritsune…. Worthwhile having a read. 
 

Meanwhile the oshigata below is from KoAoe Naritsune and the photo from a TokuJu F Ichimonji. The latter has a different “Tsune” kanji. 
 

 

[ken kata]

Thanks for posting those photos Michael S.   

The mei on the blade i have is going gimei on me.. 

Quote form somewhere: 

Ko-Aoe artist's mei in most cases consists of two characters incised with a thick chisel.Tachi-mei in general on works produced by other schools in the Heian and Kamakura periods were chiseled principally on the haki-omote, while the works of the Bitchu-Aoe artists are often found on the haki-ura of the tachi. Nagamei and nenki (dates) are almost never seen.

Here is my original post of the Aoe experience: 

 

 

On another note:

About the " Holes" in the Nakago..

I saw , somewhere, that, if this blade was/is old, it was /about the time the Uchigata appeared (?  - late 1300's or early 1400's ).

and, was displayed as Katana.

I am the victim of my own quest for knowledge, as, the old saying was " To teach a guy nothing, is to teach him everything" .

  Alton 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Hello Alton, I do remember the discussion about Narishige. I had forgotten that highlighted page and that we probably discussed this sword a bit too.

 

I wouldn't think gimei on this sword, just rather think it as (at least so far) unknown signature. I think the signature is legitimate on this sword. I think Michael has a point and it could certainly be pre-Ōei too, I see something from late Kamakura to early Muromachi as possibilities for this one.

 

I believe the Bitchū Senoo Noritsune that Steve posted earlier is from Jūyō 53, unfortunately I don't have that book yet. That is the only (則常) Noritsune that has made Jūyō. The Noritsune (則恒) mei that Michael posted I believe it was judged as Ichimonji at Jūyō 18 but later revised towards Bitchū Senoo at Tokubetsu Jūyō 25.

 

I think in general when Aoe smiths used 2 character mei, it was very rarely put so neatly near mune as on your sword. Later longer signatures were often on smaller characters and near mune.

 

Have you tried taking an angled picture with a pointed light source, if it would be possible to see the actual hamon? This is an exciting sword. Do you have a picture of it with habaki on? Is this in shirasaya or in koshirae?

[Jacques D.]

No oshigata of this smith (very likely not that skilled) in the literature and no examples of his work. All one can do is speculate and I refuse to do that.

[mywei]

Should strongly consider sending this for shinsa

 

The mei kinda also looks like it could be 國常　kunitsune but the only smiths are Shinto Mino and this blade doesn't fit that

 

Can we have closer shots of the jihada and hamon

[Tom Darling]

Hi Alton,  kindly take a close-up  pic.of the kissaki/boshi area like the nakago pic. it would be very helpful.

[Franco D]

Shape is early, however, keep in mind that there was a period of time during the muromachi period that produced worthy copies of earlier swords, sometimes complete with a mei. A blueish tinge to the metal is one give away.

Real or memorex?

[ken kata]

Hello Gentlemen, 

Hi Jacques . You helped a lot on my other post about Kamakura Polishing.

Thanks for that.. It's O.K.  I understand.. 

Some Breaking News!!!

But, first, ...  Thanks for replying.. 

Jussi, Here is the Blade with the Hibaki.

[ken kata]

Here is photos I've been taking as requested , to help me with the Blade.

My Camera is like15 years Old.. 8.5 Mega Pixels.

Hi Matt, Here is the best shot that came out tonight. Hada and Hamon.

Hi Tom,  Here is the Kissaki. Looks bust up..

Hi Franko, amazing, I was thinking of that same "Is it live, or is it Memorex" today.. 

 

[ken kata]

Gentlemen, There is/was lots of odd things about this blade. One big factor, is, like many say/think, it is probably not an important smith. The proof is that, somehow, It filtered down to me.. Being unknown and worn and tired..

 

The Breaking News is..

I got no Funbari..  questionable Yaki-otoshi.  Sai Ha , and, Possible Crack . Maybe Mizukage...

Maybe that is why the Nakago might not look Right? or, the Sugata is odd? 

Did you guys see "Zatoichi's Cane Sword" ( Shitaro Katsu ).. When the sword smith tapped the "Cracked Blade"?

I was tapping the end of the nakago and moving up and as I get to the mid section of the Nakago, I get that feeling.. 

or, is it the Jigane separating? 

 

[Jacques D.]

Shinogi seems high, am i right ?

[ken kata]

HI Jacques,  

High,  "wide".

looks high. High/wide is sometimes point to older Blades?

I read that in the sword book..

BTW,

France's Ciryl Gane just won the Interim UFC Heavy Weight Champion.  

 

Hi Matt W.  

I was in contact with Robert "Bob" Benson about a Kanesada Wakizashi.

I might ask him to see what he says about the Shinsa.. 

He was packing to go to San Francisco.

Bob came to visit me once.

He liked my Raku Tea Bowls.  Bob likes Japanese Ceramics too.

[Jacques D.]

 High shinogi is seen in Yamato and in the schools inspired by it (we find some in Mino) but it is not an absolute rule, we also find some in Bitchu Katayama. However it happens that the nihonto meikan quotes a Noritsune in this school who worked during the OEI era, as the sugata seems to correspond (nagasa, sori, kissaki), it is a possibility. Frankly I don't see this sword being from the Kamakura period. 

[ken kata]

Hello Forum/everyone.. 

Sorry to keep posting..

Jacques ,

Thanks for the  Nihonto Meikon research..  

Jussi and others, your thoughts for 1400's was strong.

 

That does connect with the NIHONTO CLUB 's helpful site.

I use that site often.

NOR 407  Oei Era Katayama Bitchu

Hawley 20    NMK 745-8

 

Jacques , you , and others mentioned " Utsushi" ?

I do remember a lecture back in a 2012 JSSH meeting, and forgot that word..

Looking back at the "Handout" from his lecture.. 

He expressed: 

" Late Muromachi and early Shinto blades were often made imitating the sugata of suriage Kamakura or Nambokucho .

Oei tases favored a return to Kamakura sugata, .... " 
He doubts that Oei  bades can be confused with Kamakura. ( Not to be taken negatively.  )

Another , different site on Utsushi  had:

" Utsushi is simply not copying or reproducing a masterpiece or motif from the past.

Instead, Utsushi promotes a dialogue between the artist and the masters of the past, connecting past, present, and future. "

 

Funny in that.. Thru the years.

and even now... Like for me. If I went to Japan ( like on a package vacation trip)  and could stay with a smith for a month, and, at the end, make "My own Blade" there.. 

Guess what I. or most of you,  would "chose" to Utsushi ? 

600 years from now, would have lots of "Masamunes  ".

Thanks for viewing. 

Alton