Tsuba made out of western coins ?

[DirkO]

Hi,

 

I came across this tsuba and I can only describe it as being made out of 2 western coinpieces with some Latin inscribed. The only part I can make out it is ... cresxxxx concordiXXX... From an old, semi-forgotten classical background, I think this would mean "emerge victorious"

 

The obvious guess for the origin of these coins would be Spain or another Catholic seafaring nation. Does anyone of you know more about this kind of tsuba ? Was it commonly done ?

 

(bigger, clear pic through following link)

http://www.genpuku.com/PICS/tsuba/namban/ts015z.jpg

 

Hozon Papers

[Brian]

Dirk,

You win the strangest genuine tsuba of the week award :lol:

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

That's probably one of the coolest examples of Namban I've ever seen. The coins are silver Dutch 60 Stuivers minted in the Dutch province of Zeeland around 1760-1780. The date is cut out of the bottom of one of the coins but the "1" still remains intact. The condition of these coins is fantastic,......well aside from the alterations. :-) Coin collectors would go nuts for the patina thats on them.

 

The "concordia" inscription is: "Concordia res parvae c r e s c u n t " or "By concord (harmony, like-mindedness), small things grow great".

 

Very very cool.

[DirkO]

Once you told me it was Dutch, being Belgian, I easily tracked it down. I'll give you an English resumé. First of all, let me tell you that the state these coins are still in, is pretty good !

 

 

They were made between 1681-1691 in the Dutch town of Utrecht. It's from an area in Holland called Gelderland. Due to it's specific inscriptions, this is an early piece. Writing on one side 'CONCORDIA:RESPARVÆ:CRESC UNT' (small things grow through unity)

Writing on the other side : 'MO:NO:ARG:ORD:GEL:ET:COMZVT' : new silver coin from the state Gelderland and the count of Zutphen

Material: silver (0,583)

Weight: 4,71 gr

 

Here's the whole thing (newer piece, so other writing on 1 end) :

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Beautifully done!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Dirk, That is an amazing tsuba for a variety of reasons. A real jewel. BTW Could you explain what that website is all about? Is it a place for public downloading or uploading of nihonto related files and pics? http://www.genpuku.com John

[DirkO]

Nah, it's one of my domains I use :-) There should come a nihontowebsite in time, with my own little collection and stuff, but I never seem to have time to really get stuck in

 

All the good domainnames were taken, so genpuku.com seemed the most appropriate for a beginner like me

 

However, if someone is in need of webspace to store docs or articles or pics, I'd be more than happy to offer hostspace for free. (I can go up to 500GB but I only use a fraction of that)

[remzy]

How is that even possible to fuse two coins together without damaging the stamping?!?!

[Jean]

Astounding object.

 

Here is the link

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/equipment/ts015.html

[Jacques D.]

hi,

 

How is that even possible to fuse two coins together without damaging the stamping?!?!

 

I think four coins was utilized.

[Pete Klein]

Wo -- that's one cool tsuba!

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Dirk

 

To me it seems clear this is made from 2 coins. A simple half lap joint silver-soldered together. Fairly straightforward for a skilled craftsman. I think the edge was probably filed with that slanting pattern after it was joined as I doubt that was on the original coins. I particularly like the clever use of the left over rim bits to form the outline of the ryo-hitsu

 

Very intriguing and appealing piece, congrats,

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Ted Tenold]

I noticed the edges too. Very nice touch by the maker to refine the design. The coins either originally had a "reeded" edge like many coins which are verticle lines or just a blank edge, probably just a plain edge. I like the roped style better. :-)

 

Talk about portable wealth! :-)

[Ted Tenold]

They were made between 1681-1691 in the Dutch town of Utrecht. It's from an area in Holland called Gelderland. Due to it's specific inscriptions, this is an early piece. Writing on one side 'CONCORDIA:RESPARVÆ:CRESC UNT' (small things grow through unity)

Writing on the other side : 'MO:NO:ARG:ORD:GEL:ET:COMZVT' : new silver coin from the state Gelderland and the count of Zutphen

Material: silver (0,583)

Weight: 4,71 gr

 

Here's the whole thing (newer piece, so other writing on 1 end) :

 

 

The coin you show is minted for a different province than that of the tsuba. The main difference is in the coat of arms under the horse and rider. The province of Zeeland coin's coat of arms is a lion emerging from water, where your example is different. Zeeland's motto is "Luctor et Emergo", I struggle and I emerge. You can see elements of this coat of arms even though it's cut away like the majority of the date. A numismatist specializing in these coins could likely pinpoint the mint date through characteristics of the die used to strike them.

 

Sorry all, not trying to turn this into a numismatic forum, I have a coin background and it's a stroll down memory lane. :-) Did I happen to mention I really like this tsuba?

 

:D

[DirkO]

Very intriguing and appealing piece, congrats,

 

Ford, alas it's not my own tsuba, but if it were still for sale, I would definitely go for it :-) Also, this is the first time that I see that the ana are bordered by non opening hinges. Are these real functional hinges or just mockups ?

 

@ Ted Tenold : I bow to your numismatic knowledge. All I wanted to show was how the coin would look in full effect. I also noticed a few differences. But although I could find that exact coin, the quality of those coins was a lot worse than these 2

[Ted Tenold]

Dirk,

 

No no, please. I specialized in 19th and 20th century American coins. I just knew where to look to identify them and got enthusiastic about the research. I originally suspected they might be Belgian minted because of the helmet design the rider is shown wearing.

 

I hope it helped!

[Brian]

I also find this one fascinating. Especially those "hinges" that don't seem to serve any purpose. Just artistic license? I bet this Samurai/merchant was the envy of his friends. I am sure there is a story of how the coins were obtained and why he chose to use them to have a tsuba made.

Should we upload the pics here just so that they stay relevant if the page disappears or are you confident the pics will remain up Dirk?

 

Brian

[DirkO]

Brian, it's my own hosting, so I'm 100% sure they'll stay up, I also have local copies, so no risk of losing them !

 

I'm also curious about those hinges ... seeing they can never open, why not just weld it to the rest ? And just like you I'm really looking forward to maybe learn the story behind this tsuba :-)

[Ford Hallam]

what appear to be non functioning hinges are merely clever rivet joints. The maker evidently chose to make a feature of the join. He could very easily made an "invisible" join by soldering those pieces on. Perhaps this method of joining was inspired by a detail on a piece of European armour he's seen. But the choice is definitely an aesthetic one.

 

[Gabriel L]

Wow, that is something else. Every now and then something so unexpected comes along that it shifts your perception of what possibilities are out there.

 

A+

[Tavroch]

A while back there was a tsuba for sale with the VOC logo all over.

I think it was on e-sword.jp, maybe Aoi-art. A year or so back.

Did anyone catch that? I thought I backed up some pics but I can't find them anymore.

I'd be interested in seeing that one again. Anyone?

 

Oh, and can I add that I like the two-dime tsuba?

(One hundred and twenty-dime that is.)

 

At times like this I can see the other side of the argument of the whole digital rights thingy.

Pictures are worth quite a lot when there's no chance you will ever be able to see the real thing.

Somehow this touches on the fundamentals of art, doesn't it?

[Peter Bleed]

Nanban fittings are a lot of fun and I was totally sincere in saying that Fred Geyer has discovered some extremely interesting and high quality pieces. I was interested in Namban tsuba that appeared to have been based on European sword guards.

During the Edo period Japan was supposedly "closed" but lots of 'foreign' ideas flowed into the country - sugary cake, bread, trousers, condoms, cannons, leather, felt hats, global geographic understanding, Dutch medical texts, oh, and steel ingots.

This trade was regulated and routininzed in very Japanese ways. Study of foreign information was called "Rangaku". Use of foreign objects and styles also became a popular fad that was called "Rampiki".

In the 1780s all across Japan, stylish guys affected foreign style objects, clothing, and manners. A way of looking 'with it' was to use some things that the community viewed as exotic and foreign. Most samurai could only afford to embrace this fad with low end stuff - witness all of those crappy Namban guards out there. At the high end, trend setters in foreign style were ranked and discussed in the popular press. And the economy was doing really well so there were lots of rich guys who could afford really nice foreign geegaws. That is what I think the coin tsuba is. It is the equivalent of a platinum Hello Kitty.

Peter

[rkg]

Hi,

 

I got to shoot this earlier in the year, and I have to say its one of the coolest pieces I've ever had the privilege of working with. Liked it so much I ended up re-shooting it when I got a higher resolution camera.

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[kusunokimasahige]

As I wrote in another post. Some historical errors in this topic.

 

Utrecht is NOT part of Gelderland, nor has it ever been.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic

 

KM

[chris covington]

I have been known to collect a coin or two. I have a small collection of Knights of St. John coins http://coins.mos.net.au/CC.htm. This tsuba is very interesting and I would love to see other examples with European coins worked into the design. The patina on those coins is wonderful! I wish all of my silver coins looked that sharp.

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Civilis]

Haven't seen this topic earlier and I realize it's an old one, but any chance this tsuba is for sale?

[Jean]

Sold years ago.

[Adrian]

 

The coin you show is minted for a different province than that of the tsuba. The main difference is in the coat of arms under the horse and rider. The province of Zeeland coin's coat of arms is a lion emerging from water, where your example is different. Zeeland's motto is "Luctor et Emergo", I struggle and I emerge. You can see elements of this coat of arms even though it's cut away like the majority of the date. A numismatist specializing in these coins could likely pinpoint the mint date through characteristics of the die used to strike them.

 

Sorry all, not trying to turn this into a numismatic forum, I have a coin background and it's a stroll down memory lane. :-) Did I happen to mention I really like this tsuba?

 

:D

 

 

Nice to see there are other people here who have a numismatic background :D

 

The coin discussed here is called a Dukaton (and sometimes a "silver rider") and as far as I know was worth 60 to 63 stuivers. Indeed the piece use for the tsuba was minted in the province of Zeeland.

Here is a similar piece in a decent condition:

 

http://sincona.bidinside.com/en/lot/697 ... nte-1028-/

 

What I find interesting is the use of high quality silver for a tsuba. These coins are very soft and can be easily cut, therefore it's obvious that the person who ordered this tsuba had very little to no perspective to use his sword.

[Toryu2020]

Has to be the coolest tsuba I have seen in a long time. Thank you for pointing it out,

-t

[Curran]

Was posted over 4 years ago.

This is a very old thread.

 

While blades seem to continue to be soft in prices, the number of interesting fittings like Fred's coming to market has dropped substantially since the 2003-2004 Bankruptcy of the private Fittings Museum due to the owner's poor investments. That represented the last great buying opportunity. We're just not seeing that many quality pieces anymore. Having gone over photos of the DTI and been rather bored by what was show versus the prices, items there are trading at multiples of what they can be had for in North America- if found. Yet a lot of the traditional sources for top level fittings are drying up.

 

This score by Fred 4+ years ago was a good one, and one he shouldn't let go.