Jump to content

Requesting further info on NBTHK papers


Recommended Posts

Happy Monday all! Did not want to hijack the other thread, so I'm pasting MIchael's post below (bottom of post). By the way Michael, thank you for posting that link.

 

With that said, for MIchael or anyone else with experience in this, what can I expect regarding further information from the NBTHK if I contact them about a paper? Would they have any other information other than the fact that the paper was issued? I'm kind of hoping for some further detail on how the Kantei group reached the decision they did. Further, would the be likely to have further documentation (i.e. pictures) of the blade so that it could be confirmed that the blade currently with the paperwork is the blade that was originally papered?

 

This section seems to refer to this, but I'm not sure:

 

Quote

You can inquire the ledger by telephone whether you have a registration for the "certificate", "appraisal certificate", and "designation certificate" issued by our association. "Certificate number" and "Certificate issuance date" are required for inquiries.

Even if the inscription and length of the ledger inquiry match, the certificate itself may be forged, or the photo / stamp may have been altered, so the property to be inquired and the certificate must be genuine. Please note that we do not guarantee .

If you wish to check the actual item, please contact the management section in advance as it is a reservation system.

 

Is this basically saying that you would need to send the blade in?

 

Lastly, it appears phone contact is the only way to go? I somehow don't see that going all that well...I'm assuming it would be best to go through someone who already is used to working with the NBTHK?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jason,

Unless you're talking about a Tokubetsu Juyo paper (or maybe but not likely a Juyo paper), you'll get no where with this.  So many Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon papers have been issued, the NBTHK can't possibly keep track of details on every one.  As long as the picture of the nakago (oshigata of nakago on older papers) matches your sword's nakago and you have no specific reason to doubt the paper's authenticity, all is well and you have no cause for concern.

Grey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Jason,

Unless you're talking about a Tokubetsu Juyo paper (or maybe but not likely a Juyo paper), you'll get no where with this.  So many Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon papers have been issued, the NBTHK can't possibly keep track of details on every one.  As long as the picture of the nakago (oshigata of nakago on older papers) matches your sword's nakago and you have no specific reason to doubt the paper's authenticity, all is well and you have no cause for concern.

Grey

 

Thanks Grey. I had a feeling that would be the reality of the situation. It's the "no specific reason to doubt the paper's authenticity," that throws the wrench, so to speak. The blade is from AOI and the paper appears legit. The picture certainly matches the nakago (though I will be looking more carefully again), but there are some questions that can be raised as to the attribution vs the blade. You can check out the "New Acquisition" thread I posted for a look yourself, if you haven't seen it. It would have been awesome if there were some record of the notes from the Kantei as they could answer a lot of the points that are in question. I'm just new enough in the hobby to be insecure in what I have and wishing I had something more concrete to rely on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, Jason and John, my experience with this is the following:

- very few people speak English properly at the NBTHK or are brave to speak it. I suspect more can speak it than they profess; whatever the case, you get little with pure English enquiries and no way you can email 

- therefore, usually your enquiries should be in Japanese to hit the highest success rate - either in person, or by phone or via fax (!)

- I used a friend/agent for an enquiry /needless to say he speaks perfect Japanese 

- I was interested in a Muramasa katana around 7-8 years ago but it came with only koshu tokubetsu kicho papers. Now it being in Japan, putatively made by a very famous smith and with a well-known dealer, it seemed to me that the dealer could/should have got a new certificate

- so my scepticism led me to ask my friend to make some calls to the NBTHK to enquire about the sword, certificate, etc. 

- needless to say, after all of that consultation, I did not buy the sword

 

The NBTHK are very secretive about the records they keep - it would make sense for them to keep copies of the photos or oshigata of issued certificates but I am not sure. Regarding Juyo and TJ - yes, they do keep records and the Juyo zufu is one such evidence of  a record. But when it comes to H/TH I am not sure whether they keep nakago photos/oshigata, certificate number / issue date or not. My suspicion is that there is some h/TH record, which is borne out of:

- my personal experience in the consultation above

- the description on their website saying that you could call and check

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jason,

I'd be very surprised if Aoi Art (Mr. Tsuruta) would knowingly sell a sword with a fake paper; I think you can safely assume that the paper is legit.  You may disagree with the attribution on the paper but that's a different story.

Grey

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, Grey. That was my impression before purchasing through them and I am glad to hear it echoed. 
 

Still, I had to check to see if there was any chance of getting more info on how that attribution was arrived at as it would have been SO informative and educational. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

So, Jason and John, my experience with this is the following:

- very few people speak English properly at the NBTHK or are brave to speak it. I suspect more can speak it than they profess; whatever the case, you get little with pure English enquiries and no way you can email 

- therefore, usually your enquiries should be in Japanese to hit the highest success rate - either in person, or by phone or via fax (!)

- I used a friend/agent for an enquiry /needless to say he speaks perfect Japanese 

- I was interested in a Muramasa katana around 7-8 years ago but it came with only koshu tokubetsu kicho papers. Now it being in Japan, putatively made by a very famous smith and with a well-known dealer, it seemed to me that the dealer could/should have got a new certificate

- so my scepticism led me to ask my friend to make some calls to the NBTHK to enquire about the sword, certificate, etc. 

- needless to say, after all of that consultation, I did not buy the sword

 

The NBTHK are very secretive about the records they keep - it would make sense for them to keep copies of the photos or oshigata of issued certificates but I am not sure. Regarding Juyo and TJ - yes, they do keep records and the Juyo zufu is one such evidence of  a record. But when it comes to H/TH I am not sure whether they keep nakago photos/oshigata, certificate number / issue date or not. My suspicion is that there is some h/TH record, which is borne out of:

- my personal experience in the consultation above

- the description on their website saying that you could call and check

 

Great advice and direction.  I believe if you inquire in proper Japanese with details about the certificate number, date of issue and member's name you might have a chance. Otherwise .. money pit - agents, fees, shipping, stress etc...

 

 

John 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's really not that bad John.  If you get a good agent, you let them handle it.  The shipping and documentation costs a bit, but that is why most people don't bother unless the sword is of sufficient quality to justify the expense, bother and wait.  Your swords sound like they are worth it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Surfson said:

It's really not that bad John.  If you get a good agent, you let them handle it.  The shipping and documentation costs a bit, but that is why most people don't bother unless the sword is of sufficient quality to justify the expense, bother and wait.  Your swords sound like they are worth it.  

 

Thank you kindly. As I mentioned once, I want to do it to honor the blades and give peace of mind to the potential buyers. NTHK in August will be the starting point although one of the muromachi papered blades apparently got moved to Nambokucho...reliable or not, I wouldn't speculate. my buddy had NTHK muromachi that NBTHK moved to Nambokucho... who knows...but having a paper is way better than not having one.

 

 

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...