Inherited sword from my grandfather please help identify these markings

[Risingtheory]

I inherited this from my grandfather who was a p51D mustang pilot in WWII. Any help identifying maker and date would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[Risingtheory]

Additional photo. Thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

Step One

君万歳

水陽住細川守寿

 

 

 

[Risingtheory]

Thank you Piers! 

 

I'm aware that the first three Kanji are for "long live the emperor" 

 

The issue I'm having is the second batch. What is "Suiyo"

 

I know I'm a newbie here, but is this a familiar name (Hosokawa Morito) to any of you all? 

 

I've received conflicting information on the proper translation of the name as well.

http://imgur.com/gallery/s01tnK7

 

Here's a complete breakdown of the entire item. 

 

Thanks again!

Chris

Edited May 9, 2021 by Risingtheory
Edited to add translations of kanji

[Bugyotsuji]

Chris, this is not my field really. I've had a quick look around the J net but not come up with anything concrete, just hints of this and that which I cannot tie up at the moment.  I suspect there may be much more behind that name. 

 

The first is Banzai to the Emperor, and may refer back to an older smith using Banzai, Banzaishi Moritoshi, of the school of Suishinshi Masahide.

Suiyo, refers to the area of the Mito Han. 

Sui-Yo Ju Hosokawa Moritoshi

[Risingtheory]

Thank you again Piers!

You have already given me very good info to start some digging. If you have the time and find anymore information on the name I will be very grateful! 

 

Chris

[Risingtheory]

The imgur link has the complete batch of photos. Are you able to make out the Kanji on the Fuchi? They're a bit faded but I suspect it's maybe the owners name?

[uwe]

37 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Step One

君万歳

水陽住細川守寿

 

 

 

I’m struggling with the last Piers...”壽”?

[Bugyotsuji]

Uwe, kotobuki can be written in simpler and more difficult ways.

壽　寿 

[SteveM]

16 hours ago, Risingtheory said:

I've received conflicting information on the proper translation of the name as well.

 

Hello Chris, what other information did you receive?

I think Piers gave you the right kanji and translation. I also think he's probably right about the connection to Banzaishi Moritoshi (early 1800s). 

Same kanji in the swordsmith name, similar geographic location, similar use of the "banzai" phrase. There aren't many Moritoshi smiths in the swordsmith indexes - actually, just this one in Markus Sesko's compilation.  So I think this is your man. 

Don't try to clean it up or scrape the rust off. If possible, get it into the hands of someone who knows Japanese swords. Yours is in bad shape, but it may be salvageable if it gets professional treatment . Resist the urge to do any amateur restoration work. At most, give it gentle wipe with lightweight oil. 
 

[Risingtheory]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

 

Hello Chris, what other information did you receive?

I think Piers gave you the right kanji and translation. I also think he's probably right about the connection to Banzaishi Moritoshi (early 1800s). 

Same kanji in the swordsmith name, similar geographic location, similar use of the "banzai" phrase. There aren't many Moritoshi smiths in the swordsmith indexes - actually, just this one in Markus Sesko's compilation.  So I think this is your man. 

Don't try to clean it up or scrape the rust off. If possible, get it into the hands of someone who knows Japanese swords. Yours is in bad shape, but it may be salvageable if it gets professional treatment . Resist the urge to do any amateur restoration work. At most, give it gentle wipe with lightweight oil. 
 

Hi Steve, I cross-posted this on Reddit as well. One gentleman there gave me a lot of really good information. However,  he was unclear on the Kanji translations. Piers has been a great help in translating for me. The consensus is that it's mid 1800s for sure. Just would like to know more about rarity as well as what grade of forging this is? If I'm expressing that correctly. Was this a family sword that was converted in WWII? And what's with the hearts? So many questions I'm sorry, please forgive me. Just really curious to know everything I can about it. I will not be trying to do any restoration on it. However I would like to preserve it. Any advice on professionals in Texas would be greatly appreciated! 

 

Thanks, Chris

[Bruce Pennington]

The hearts (to us) are often called "boar's eye".  Found on WWII seppa too:

[SteveM]

If it is from the early 1800s (which I think it is), then it is certainly a traditionally-made Japanese sword, made in Japan's feudal past. Its impossible to tell the quality of the sword in its current state. I mean, it looks OK from pictures, but it needs to be polished by a trained Japanese-sword polisher so that the various features of the steel can be revealed. What we can say is that there is so little information on this swordsmith, he probably wasn't a particularly great artisan swordmaker. Having said that, he did train under one of the great masters of the art, so... if it were my sword I would be looking around for a trained polisher. There are just a few in North America. Watch out for "self-trained" polishers, as these guys invariably cause lasting damage to these irreplaceable objects. 

 

Whether or not it has a connection to WW2 is something probably only your grandfather could answer. It isn't unusual to find family swords being put into wartime fittings (scabbards and such) so that soldiers could bring a family sword to war - however your sword's fittings look like one would expect a late Edo-era (1800s) sword's fittings to look. In other words, its not in wartime fittings. I would say it probably stayed safely in someone's house throughout the war.

[Bruce Pennington]

There were many privately owned Swords confiscated after the war.

[Risingtheory]

Thank you gentlemen very much,  how does one go about finding a polisher? Also I'm in touch with several family members with records of my grandfather's service history. I will be sure to post any updates on that aspect. Who knows maybe it will lead to even more of an interesting story. 

 

Thanks again

[ChrisW]

You would typically reach out to a select few individual whom have contacts with polishers in Japan. It requires a lot of time and polishing costs tend to start around $100/inch plus shipping costs and the arranging agent's cost as well. With how things are right now, you can expect it to take longer than normal as well. Depending on the blade, it can be a cost that won't be justified by potential end-value, but more on personal value.

[SteveM]

This thread might be useful: