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Old Antique Japanese Samurai Officers sword, WW2, Kai Gunto, Bizen Sukesada


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Steve & John V., let's start off with the fact that there were many generations of Sukesada tosho. So if someone is going to make a gimei copy, this name probably would not be chosen, as there simply wouldn't be much, if any, profit. This is what John J. said.

 

With that out of the way, have either of you taken a close look at your blades for their other qualities? Sugata? Jihada? Hamon? How do these compare to known-good blades? There's an important saying: "Buy the sword, not the mei.' When you're considering a blade to buy, strip it down, until it's bare, before you start your kantei. Look at the koshirae & tosogu only after you've made sure that the blade is what you think it is - & what you want to spend your money on. This site should help: https://markussesko.com/kantei/

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Hi Steve,

SHUGYOSHA/John mentioned three 'pillars' to identify price/value of a blade in post #17. I would like to add a fourth factor: Quality. A simple blade of medium quality will not improve much in value over the centuries, and the price of your blade may be quite o.k. if it was authentic and in good polish. Age alone does not make for a high price unless it is really very old (let's say 1000 years) AND rare. Quality is what counts, and there were always good and lesser blades. 

When you read a lot here and learn the terminology, you will be able to understand the very many facets of this vast field of very special interest!

Start with MEI = signature. GI-MEI means a wrong or faked signature, but does not mean the blade is necessarily bad.

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3 hours ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

Steve & John V., let's start off with the fact that there were many generations of Sukesada tosho. So if someone is going to make a gimei copy, this name probably would not be chosen, as there simply wouldn't be much, if any, profit. This is what John J. said.

 

With that out of the way, have either of you taken a close look at your blades for their other qualities? Sugata? Jihada? Hamon? How do these compare to known-good blades? There's an important saying: "Buy the sword, not the mei.' When you're considering a blade to buy, strip it down, until it's bare, before you start your kantei. Look at the koshirae & tosogu only after you've made sure that the blade is what you think it is - & what you want to spend your money on. This site should help: https://markussesko.com/kantei/

I agree. I am happy with mine! Jihada, togare utsuri  :)

 

P.S. never knew a phone could take such photos

 

 

Cheers

 

 

John

 

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Firstly I’m fortunate I have help from others abomination sword so from what I read I’ll start with this from another sword enthusiast  

This sword was made during a time in Japan called the Sengoku Period in the early to mid-1500s. At this time, sword making was a very localized industry.

One of the larger sword producing regions was in Bizen, and they supplied many of the swords during this Sengoku Period. The Sukesada name can be thought of as a company name in today's context, and not a single smith churning out thousands of swords, which is impossible. Therefore, each Sukesada sword, regardless of the signature, should be judged on its individual merit. 

The mei on your sword is not considered "chicken scratch" writing. The characters are properly formed. I know because I read and write kanji. It's hard enough to write properly with a pen and paper, let alone chiseling it into metal. You can see some Sukesada mei online that have many characters, but are indeed "chicken scratch" because the strokes are poorly made with uneven depths and overlapping strokes.  

However, I can say that your sword is not a Sukesada that would be considered as a high-art sword that was made by the master smith himself. These go for much, much more money.

What you have is mostly likely a mass produced sword, but it still shows very distinct Sukesada characteristics such as the Bizen hamon and grain, and the graceful curvature of the blade.  This is Steve , my take on this Because Every sword is judged by his own individual merit and Because so many persons signed these mass produced swords some were made better or worse depending on the smith!  Also I’m not sure what I got from this feed someone said that the mei wasn’t copied or forged or they would have used the long signature? And If someone isgoing to make a gimei copy, this name probably would notbe chosen, as there simply wouldn't be much, if any, profit. As quoted by John V Again because so many smiths signed this sword it should be looked at as quoted in this feed qualities? Sugata? Jihada? Hamon?  I’m hoping my sword reflects all of the above as one of the better swords that was made by the smith  Can anyone elaborate for this feed and what there opinion is  by looking at the pictures of this sword 

  I  know it would need to be in hand for a accurate assumption but I will take any opinions !!
Note: If I misrepresented any one wasn’t my intention 

 

Steve

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20 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

I don’t think yours is a fake signature as it’s not a signature that suggests it was done to deceive - a fake Sukesada signature would have aimed at the big name, so I think you’re safe with a two character signature. IMHO. 

Hi just to clarify the fake signature So quote me if I’m wrong they would fake a long signature to gains more money but a 2 character is ok? Who signed that one and what exactly the interpretation of the 2 characters ?

 

steve 

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Steve,

Most Japanese artists choose an art name to work under, usually a combination of auspicious  characters. 
 

What you have said is too much of a generalisation. A longer signature doesn’t automatically give a sword greater value than a short one, but it can be an indicator of a custom order blade and often is with swords of this province at this time. 
 

Basically, what  I’m trying to say works in the context of Bizen smiths from the 16th century signing with a two character signature “Sukesada” because of the sheer number of them. 
 

For me there would be no point in faking this two character signature because it could be any one of a large number of low-ranked smiths. Hawley’s Japanese swordsmiths lists 60 or so low to average ranked smiths using the name Sukesada in Bizen in the 16th century, mostly making mass produced blades. So there’s no money in forging one of their signatures. 

 

So in this very specific context, a two character signature probably isn’t worth forging and it’s reasonably safe to conclude the signature on yours is genuine. 

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2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Steve,

Most Japanese artists choose an art name to work under, usually a combination of auspicious  characters. 
 

What you have said is too much of a generalisation. A longer signature doesn’t automatically give a sword greater value than a short one, but it can be an indicator of a custom order blade and often is with swords of this province at this time. 
 

Basically, what  I’m trying to say works in the context of Bizen smiths from the 16th century signing with a two character signature “Sukesada” because of the sheer number of them. 
 

For me there would be no point in faking this two character signature because it could be any one of a large number of low-ranked smiths. Hawley’s Japanese swordsmiths lists 60 or so low to average ranked smiths using the name Sukesada in Bizen in the 16th century, mostly making mass produced blades. So there’s no money in forging one of their signatures. 

 

So in this very specific context, a two character signature probably isn’t worth forging and it’s reasonably safe to conclude the signature on yours is genuine. 

That's why I jumped in the subject as there are similarities between mine and his (to certain extent :)

 

 

Cheers

 

 

John

20210501_195339.jpg

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I don’t think you meant to dish my sword I’m open to opinions as for the signature not faked yes I believe that but what confuses me it the signature wasn’t faked then who signed it?? 
Jonn thinks because the hamon and was elaborate and jigane not a inferior  blade? hamon Anyone else agreed not that I don’t believe you it’s always good to hear other opinions John you made sense that why would a sword  500 years ago In polish only worth 2000? It may be mass produced but still had to take time to make plus the polish and later add pristine navy mounts makes it all worth while!! 

I believe it was a Family of a Japanese heirloom who added navy mounts for war It’s not be a custom sword but a one of a kind   500 year old with history in good polished add pristine Navy mounts I should be happy! Thanks guys 

 

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57 minutes ago, Swords said:

I don’t think you meant to dish my sword I’m open to opinions as for the signature not faked yes I believe that but what confuses me it the signature wasn’t faked then who signed it?? 
Jonn thinks because the hamon and was elaborate and jigane not a inferior  blade? hamon Anyone else agreed not that I don’t believe you it’s always good to hear other opinions John you made sense that why would a sword  500 years ago In polish only worth 2000? It may be mass produced but still had to take time to make plus the polish and later add pristine navy mounts makes it all worth while!! 

I believe it was a Family of a Japanese heirloom who added navy mounts for war It’s not be a custom sword but a one of a kind   500 year old with history in good polished add pristine Navy mounts I should be happy! Thanks guys 

 

Definitely a family blade fitted in officer mounts!

 

As to who signed it - if you are a busy master making so many blades who would sign it ? :)

 

Your pupils for the most part, no?

 

And also,

 

BTW, NOBODY here would ever never dish your blade regardless. Based on my short time being here I have seen nothing but respect, sheer will to help one another in any way possible and an enormous amount of factual knowledge. But Blades from that era will always be a long subject of all kinds of discussions. What I am happy about is that there are dedicated members here that don't mind taking their time explaining in detail and trying to get you up to par as quickly as possible. If you truly want to formulate your own opinion I suggest looking at Markus Sesko's works. Anything there is simply marvelous. Flat out!

 

 

John

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dis. Not dish. Dis. short for disrespect.
And this whole conversation is so convoluted, I cannot even follow it anymore. Seems to have gone off on a tangent. Bundle (kazu uchimono) swords are not crap. Just generally made at a time where quantity was more important than quality. Tht's assuming this IS one. But it could be made by any number of Sukesadas.

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All depends on what you collect. If you are a history collector, a kazu uchimono blade may be worth 10 times the value of a made to order blade, because they are History (with a capital »H »).😃

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35 minutes ago, Brian said:

dis. Not dish. Dis. short for disrespect.
And this whole conversation is so convoluted, I cannot even follow it anymore. Seems to have gone off on a tangent. Bundle (kazu uchimono) swords are not crap. Just generally made at a time where quantity was more important than quality. Tht's assuming this IS one. But it could be made by any number of Sukesadas.

 

I think we are all saying the same thing.

 

Steve's sword is a decent blade and there's no reason to think otherwise but I made the mistake of trying to offer some encouragement as there seemed to be some negative comments and probably didn't do a brilliant job of it. Since then we've been going around the houses as I managed to create more questions than I answered. I'm going to leave this alone now as I think I've said all I usefully (or otherwise) can.

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