Edo wakizashi saya?

[Janrudolph]

Friends, I would like to show you some pics of my wakizashi saya, and I'd like to know what you think. I realize I cannot expect you to tell me in which year the saya was made (!!!); joke aside, would it be possible to say if this is an old saya, perhaps Edo or pre-1800 or something like that? I've also posted pics of the maki-e on the glossy black scabbard. It seems to be raised lacquer, coloured with what I presume to be copper metal powder. The nature of the pics (sea-living organisms) might give a clue? Maybe there is a style to them that could indicate age? I see an octopus, a sole-type flatfish, two molluscs and a conch, and strange little fan-like shapes, of which there are quite a lot scattered over the saya. Any comments will be appreciated! Johan 

[Janrudolph]

[Janrudolph]

[Janrudolph]

I've looked at the colours of the various creatures in the pics above, and these are the actual shades of red (?) I see on the saya. The octopus is as shown: decidedly brighter and redder than the others. In addition, if you're asking, the saya has a sayajiri, kurigata plus shitodome, as well as a kaeshizuno. The koiguchi is is buffalo horn and there is a pocket for kogatana/kozuka. Johan 

[Janrudolph]

I think I must have put the forum members on the wrong track with my last post above. It might look like I have already answered my own questions. In fact please respond only to my very first post above. I'm looking forward to seeing your kind comments and suggestions. Johan

[Geraint]

Dear Johan.

 

OK, I'll bite.  The lack of response may be because you are seeking meaning where none exists.  Dating a saya such as this is almost meaningless, the only useful guide is that good black lacquer takes on a deep brown tinge over time.  Japanese lacquer at it's best is stunning.  At the other end of the scale it is tawdry.  The quality of the work on the example you post is not great, I do not think that can be accounted for by wear.  The weed is quickly done and without great precision, the fish are delineated crudely and the octopus looks like it has been out of the water for rather too long.  To summarise, the quality of the decoration is low.

There is the possibility that this was a perfectly plain saya that has received the attentions of someone trying to tempt the Gaijin in the late 19th century or early 20th.  This idea would be supported by the rather nice horn fittings.

 

All the best.

[ROKUJURO]

Looks a bit like MEIJI to me if I was to attempt an era. You can try to prove that if you find a spot where the lacquer has chipped off. Old URUSHI work is thick and has a solid base layer, MEIJI lacquer on tourist items is usually thin.

[Janrudolph]

Geraint & Jean C, you can be sure I'll take your kind comments under serious consideration, as I always do. Far be it from me to try to justify a poor specimen if such justification is unwarranted. So Edo it is not. I'll easily bite on to the idea that it might be Meiji (and I'm going to study the Meiji history in more detail). I must tell you at this stage that when I procured this wakizashi I pestered the seller for as much background information as he can provide. I could have saved myself the effort. He was not the owner for long, but he gave me a written note that said (and I know it's just hearsay, but still) "This wakizashi is 1800's, connected to a rebellion, according to an expert in Pretoria. It is signed. The expert believed the sword was originally a katana blade." People who read this can make whatever judgements they like, and I realize the statement, as is, does not mean too much. I would have loved to have spoken to the "expert" to hear his motivation for his statements. Anyhow, I though it would make interesting reading to tell you this. I was not able to delve deeper into the background of this sword. The seller was very uncommunicative.

The two-kanji signature, if you remember, is Yasuhiro, probably gimei.

Friends, if what I have divulged here will stimulate more comments from you, it will be for my education in the nature of my nihonto sword.  Please don't keep them back. Gratefully, Johan    

[Brian]

There are no "experts" in Pretoria. In fact, there are no experts in SA. But the seller was likely Adrian, who had/has quite a large volume of assorted accumulated swords and has now moved onto high end armor.
He'll know about as much as any advanced collector on this forum.
I don't think anyone or most people here really bother trying to date saya etc. It just isn't info that is sought usually. The blade is important. And the fittings....and the entire koshirae. But dating everything aside from the blade is usually not pursued much. They were changed often and mixed and matched.
The rebellion connection cannot be proclaimed. Nothing sets apart rebellion swords aside from mountings, quality and conjecture. And it's a wild guess at best.
An 1800's call on an unknown sword is a default setting. Like saying things are Edo period which is a catch-all. Used to be Bungo or Mino school blades were the default too.

Not sure what you paid for the sword. But due to the scarcity of Nihonto in SA, they fetch quite a bit more than overseas.
For example, I know of a nice Jumyo wakizashi in good polish currently, but only in shirasaya....going for R20,000.
 

[Janrudolph]

Brian, thank you. Your comments are once again appreciated. It seems this thread (which might be my last) is drawing to a close, and I thought it would be interesting to the forum members to read my final conclusions concerning my three nihonto swords. This, coming from a novice collector of nihonto like myself, might even then be fraught with misconceptions, but I need to decide what it is that I have uncovered & learnt from my fact-gathering plus contributions of forum members in the threads till now. All this in a very small nutshell!

1)  My katana blade, straight hamon,  signed by Nobuyoshi 2nd gen and dated 1680 is Edo, blade is tired, there's a chance the signature might be real, high quality fittings are all very recent, with the only exceptions being the bamboo tsuka, sa-me, and tsuba, which are as old as the blade.

2) My wakizashi blade, straight hamon, signed by Yasuhiro (gimei) and undated, is Meiji but not a rebellion sword, blade is tired as well as shortened, might have been in a fire, fittings are as old as the blade, with the exception of the wrapping which is recent.

3) My tanto, unsigned and undated, straight hamon but difficult to see, blade and all fittings original, might have been produced in Meiji times, probably a "boy's sword" because it has the shinogi, all fittings belong to the blade. This is a complete unaltered nihonto, which might count for something.

--- All the above my own conclusions, as with antiques just 'educated' guesses -----

Regards to all the forum members. Johan.    

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Janrudolph said:

......1)  My katana blade, straight hamon,  signed by Nobuyoshi 2nd gen and dated 1680 is Edo, blade is tired, there's a chance the signature might be real, high quality fittings are all very recent, with the only exceptions being the bamboo tsuka.....

Johan,

really a bamboo TSUKA? That would be rare!

[Janrudolph]

Jean C, my apologies! That's a blunder on my part. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. I might have read somewhere that a tsuka was made of bamboo, or imagined it. And then the brain malfunction occurred... Of course tsukas are traditionally made from honoki wood (Magnolia spp) or one or two highly debated alternatives.

I try to be perfect in all things, but the strange thing is, I don't seem to succeed...! 

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Janrudolph said:

.......I try to be perfect in all things, but the strange thing is, I don't seem to succeed...! 

Johan,

that is really strange! Have you tried another diet? 

[Janrudolph]

No good changing diets, Jean. Stick with what you have. Your advice you gave earlier: "You can try to prove that if you find a spot where the lacquer has chipped off. Old URUSHI work is thick and has a solid base layer, MEIJI lacquer on tourist items is usually thin."

I did that; it seems the lacquer is not thin. Here & there I find some chips, but the wood base does not even show. I think the saya is a good one, but what DOES set me doubting, is the kaeshizuno which is attached to the saya on both ends. See pic. It can't hook the obi like that. I have not found pics to compare this one to, so I don't know if this is normal. Johan   

[Janrudolph]